Patrick Van Der Burght on the Science of Hearing Yes More Often

Patrick Van Der Burght on ethical persuasion and the science of hearing yes, Give A Heck Podcast with Dwight Heck

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What is the number one skill employers want most that almost nobody has been formally taught? Patrick Van Der Burght has spent 27 years studying exactly why people say yes, not through manipulation, but through science, and in this episode he shares what he found.

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Real conversations and solo episodes about purpose, financial stewardship, mindset, leadership, and intentional living.

🔍 Episode Overview

Twenty-seven years ago, Patrick Van Der Burght was a frustrated sales rep travelling across Australia selling scuba diving equipment, putting in hours of effort that were not translating into results. He refused to solve that problem by lying or cheating his way to a sale. That frustration led him to the work of Dr. Robert Cialdini, whose book Influence has sold more than seven million copies since 1984 and was ranked by Forbes this year as the number one pick on their list of six timeless business books.

Discovering that work changed the entire direction of Patrick’s career. For the past 27 years, with Dr. Cialdini’s own permission, he has been teaching the science of ethical persuasion to professionals around the world. He is now one of a small number of trainers worldwide licensed directly through the Cialdini Institute, a founding member of that institute, a business partner of Dr. Cialdini himself, ranked 4th among Cialdini Certified Trainers worldwide, and the co-author of How to Hear YES More Often.

In this first of two episodes, Patrick takes Dwight from the very beginning: the paint and wallpaper shop his parents ran in the Netherlands, the scuba diving career that took him from Thailand to Australia, and the cassette tapes that changed everything. He breaks down why most professionals are losing opportunities they never even know they lost, the difference between manipulation and ethical persuasion, and why the science he teaches is the same science used by Google, Apple, Microsoft, Bose, and Canva.

This is Part 1 of 2. Part 2 covers the seven universal principles of persuasion, the real-world cost of getting them wrong, and teaching the next generation.

📚 What You Will Learn in This Episode

  • Why most people in business are losing opportunities they never even realise they lost
  • How a frustrated scuba diving sales rep in Australia discovered the science of ethical persuasion on cassette tape
  • Why persuasion ranked as the third most in-demand soft skill by the World Economic Forum in 2025
  • The difference between manipulation and ethical persuasion, and why doing it ethically produces better long-term results than doing it unethically
  • Why 90 to 95 percent of human decisions are made by the brain’s fast automatic System 1, not by logic
  • The three-stage framework for getting someone to say yes: relationship, uncertainty, and motivation
  • Why AI is, in Patrick’s experience, lousy at persuasion and what that tells us about situational awareness
  • The insulation study: why 150 percent more people acted when framed around loss rather than gain

📵 Chapter Summaries

0:00  Introduction

Dwight opens with the hook about the number one skill employers want most that almost nobody has been formally taught, introduces Patrick, his 27-year career, his connection to Dr. Cialdini, and his book.

2:09  Origin Story: Paint, Wallpaper, and the Family Shop

Patrick traces his roots to his parents’ paint and wallpaper shop in the Netherlands, how working there as a child shaped his understanding of hard work, and the pivot that took him into scuba diving and eventually to Australia.

9:27  The Frustrated Sales Rep and the Cassette Tapes

Patrick describes the frustration of selling scuba equipment across Australia without results, and the moment he discovered Dr. Cialdini’s work on cassette tape. He explains how that led him to cold-email his hero and eventually become his business partner.

20:00  Why Most Businesses Are Losing Without Knowing It

Patrick explains why not using the available science of persuasion is like an architect building a skyscraper without physics, and why the losses are invisible to the people experiencing them.

28:29  The Science Behind Why People Say Yes

Patrick introduces the three-stage framework: relationship, uncertainty, and motivation, and explains which principles of persuasion apply at each stage.

43:54  The Book: How to Hear YES More Often

Patrick discusses the book he co-authored to complement Dr. Cialdini’s Influence, including his own chapter dissecting the dry diving suit story, and the other co-authors who approach the topic from completely different angles.

51:21  Manipulation vs Ethical Persuasion

Patrick explains what ethical persuasion actually looks like in practice using the social proof and scarcity principles, the insulation study where loss framing produced 150 percent more action than gain framing, and why unethical use produces short-term results but long-term disaster.

57:47  Closing and Teaser for Part 2

Dwight previews Part 2, which will cover the seven universal principles of persuasion in depth, the real-world cost of getting them wrong, and teaching the next generation. Patrick shares his free resources and how to connect.

🎯 Key Takeaway

If you are in business, you are in the business of convincing other people that what you have to offer is a good idea for them. Most people do that without the available science, which means they are losing successes that were always theirs to have. Doing it ethically and doing it successfully are the same thing. Research shows that unethical persuasion produces short-term results and long-term disaster. Ethical persuasion produces short-term results and long-term loyal relationships.

💬 Continue the Conversation

🔑 Key Themes Discussed

  • The science of ethical persuasion and why it outperforms manipulation long term
  • System 1 vs System 2 thinking and how most decisions are made automatically
  • The three stages of persuasion: relationship, uncertainty, and motivation
  • Why the World Economic Forum ranked persuasion the third most in-demand soft skill in 2025
  • Robert Cialdini and the book Influence
  • The real-world cost of not using the available science
  • Loss framing vs gain framing and the insulation study
  • Why AI lacks situational awareness in persuasion

👤 About Patrick Van Der Burght

Patrick Van Der Burght is an international expert in ethical persuasion, influence, and human decision-making based in Melbourne, Australia. He is a founding member of the Cialdini Institute, one of a small number of Cialdini Institute Licensed Trainers worldwide, a business partner of Dr. Robert Cialdini, and ranked 4th among Cialdini Certified Trainers globally. Patrick has been teaching the science of ethical persuasion to professionals, teams, and organisations since 2000. He is a commercial pilot, certified scuba diving instructor, and Harley rider who discovered his life’s work on cassette tape in the late 1990s. He is the co-author of How to Hear YES More Often (2024) and the host of the Ethical Persuasion Unlocked podcast. His clients include professionals across Australia, New Zealand, and the Australasian region. He also offers a free downloadable eBook, a seven-day email challenge, and complimentary access to five weeks of his 12-month continuity programme, all available without requiring an email address.

🌐 Connect with Patrick Van Der Burght

Connect with Patrick (click below to access)

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🎧 Listen and Watch This Episode

💭 Final Thoughts

Patrick Van Der Burght does not teach persuasion as a shortcut or a trick. He teaches it as a science that makes the business world a better place when used with integrity. The opportunities you are missing are already yours to have. The science simply shows you how to claim them without compromising who you are.

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📝 Full Episode Transcript

Patrick Van Der Burght Part 1

[00:00:00] Partrick: When a lot of people hear the word persuasion, what they hear is manipulation.

[00:00:05] And that’s absolutely not the same thing as in with manipulation. You could say, we’re trying to give somebody no choice. Where persuasion is, we are giving people options and we’re hoping that they will make a yes decision that’s based on their own values. And the the great thing about that is that when somebody makes a decision to do something from within, when you walk away, they’re gonna stay changed.

[00:00:34] Welcome to Give a Heck. I am your host, Dwight Heck, and for much of my life, lived my life in quiet, desperation wondering how I was going to pay the bills, take vacations, save for retirement, and one day wondering if I would get off the hamster wheel of life and have purpose, a life that most of society lives, which takes us to work, then home, then repeat, and pays us hopefully enough.

[00:00:59] Just to survive the harsh truth that most live with more months than money and have no idea how to live life on purpose, not by accident. This ensures the mass majority are living not just financially broke, however, emotionally and mentally as well. Due to financial pressures and each episode, I will introduce you to thoughts, ideas, and guests that can help you to learn how you too can live life on purpose, not by accident.

[00:01:28] Dwight: What is the number one skill employers say they want most in something almost nobody has ever formally taught? And what if the guests sitting across from me today has spent more than two decades studying exactly why people say yes. Not through manipulation, but through science? Welcome back to the Give a Heck podcast.

[00:01:50] I’m your host, Dwight Heck, here to help you live life on purpose and not by accident. 27 years ago, my guest today was a frustrated sales rep travelling across Australia, selling scuba diving equipment to retailers who was putting in hours of effort that were not translating into results, and he refused to solve that problem by lying or cheating his way to a sale.

[00:02:16] That frustration led him to the work of Dr. Robert Cini, the New York Times bestselling author whose book Influence has been shaping the way the world thinks about persuasion. Since it was first published in 1984, it’s sold more than 7 million copies since, and this year, Forbes ranked it in the number one pick on their list of six timeless business books.

[00:02:40] Discovering that work changed the entire direction of my guest’s career. For the past 27 years, with Dr. C Chaldini own permission, he has been teaching the science of ethical persuasion to professionals around the world. He’s now one of the small number of trainers worldwide, licenced directly through Chaldini Institute, a founding member of that institute, a business partner of the doctor himself and the author of the book, how to Hear Yes More Often.

[00:03:13] He builds everything. He teaches on hard research rather than instinct, and he spent his career proving that doing this ethically and doing it successfully are the same thing. Patrick, welcome to the Give a Heck podcast. I’m so grateful that you’ve decided to come on and share with us some of your life journey.

[00:03:34] Partrick: Thank you for inviting me, uh, Dwight, um, happy to, uh, share how I got here and also happy to share some of the insights of how persuasion works. Um, some of the rules and some, some easy to implement strategies that your audience can use immediately to be more persuasive without damaging their integrity.

[00:03:55] And, uh, I do very much remember when I was first exposed to this material that I kind of couldn’t believe how relatively simple this was. As in, are you serious? Is this the way it works? And when I give a keynote or a workshop and I’m got a whole group of people in front of me, I can slowly see that penny drop.

[00:04:15] I can slowly see those eyes get bigger, and, uh, I’m hoping that we might achieve a similar sort of, uh, reaction in your audience today. So thank you for putting me in front of them.

[00:04:25] Dwight: Y bet. I appreciate you investing some time with us. So, Patrick, I always like to start at the beginning because our origins shape absolutely everything.

[00:04:34] I genuinely believe the trials and tribulations that shape us are the very things so many people listening right now can relate to most, whether they realise it or not. Where did your story actually start? Was, what was like for young Patrick growing up long before you ever sold anything to anyone.

[00:04:54] Partrick: Well, my, uh, my parents had a paint and wallpaper shop and, um, so, you know, two days outta the week after school, I would be sitting in the back or upstairs doing my homework, that sort of stuff.

[00:05:05] So I was always sort of around that retail environment and seeing my parents work really hard and, and I had a reasonably successful store, but then again, what did I know I was 12. Um, and, but anyway, they worked really hard. So from that point it was like, well, I’m gonna take over the shop of my parents and, uh, my, uh, my parents at least, uh, and I’ve handed to ’em, they says, always said, listen, if you want, it’s there.

[00:05:35] You know, we’re happy to hand it over to you, but you don’t have to do this. You can do anything you like. So, you know, if you change your mind, don’t feel any pressure, right. We’ll just sell the shop sort of thing. You do whatever you like. So I went into retail college and, uh, you know, um, you know, sort of trades marketing, advertising, all that sort of stuff.

[00:05:54] And then, yeah, as I got a little older selling paint and wallpaper didn’t appeal that much. And, um, I was an avid, uh, scuba diver and snorkeler, I loved the water. And so, uh, I started doing, um, how do you call it, an English, an internship with, uh, for school at the, at a dive shop. And so I was working retail, selling snorkels and masks and regulators and air tanks and all that sort of stuff.

[00:06:22] And, uh, from there you see people come to visit who, uh, buy equipment that were working overseas in tropical places. I’m from the Netherlands originally, in case you haven’t worked that out from my last name. And, um, yeah, weather’s not, uh, not so great, uh, most of the year. So, you know, tropical places, uh, you know, are, uh, are very appealing.

[00:06:46] So actually, uh, packed my bag, sold the motorcycle, and uh, went to Thailand, got my instructor ticket there. And so been travelling the world for quite a few years selling, um, you know, diving education, I suppose, and wonderful experiences and that eventually led to, uh, to Australia. But yeah, I think that exposure to my parents working really hard in a retail shop, you know, they were always added six days a week.

[00:07:16] Um, you know, if if something had to be organised, one of them had to be in the shop so the other could sort of leave. There was a lot of being, a lot of effort being invested. And to sort of bring that back into persuasion science, the, the, I suppose the cold hard reality is that when people don’t use the available science.

[00:07:42] They’re not doing so well. They might not realise it, but you know, if you imagine, this is my favourite example. If you imagine a sky, um, an architect building a skyscraper and not using the available science. That we all cringe, right? It’s not gonna turn out so well. And we all see the world through the lens of, of our expertise.

[00:08:06] And so I can’t look at a restaurant menu and not think you got that in the wrong order. If you change the order, you sell more. Um, I can’t read a brochure and go nice pitch, but you fail to establish believability, right? And all these things are losing people successes that were theirs to have that were on the table, but they, they didn’t get them because they didn’t know the science.

[00:08:36] I mean, if you’re in business, you’re actually in the business of convincing other people that what it is you have to offer is, is a good idea for them. Um, and so most people in business, especially those starting off, they’re, they’re investing so much of themselves, the money that they have, and then as they grow, they’re so many families that depend on them because they’ve got employees.

[00:08:58] And, and when they’re doing that without the science, there’s so much loss happening. And I think they owe it to themselves to work more effectively. I mean, if you go to the, the doctor or, or get surgery in the hospital, you, you’d, you’d hope that the surgeon would use the available science, wouldn’t you?

[00:09:16] Um, so I think from that point of view of my parents working so hard, I, I think I saw and felt firsthand of how much effort goes into running a business and, um, yeah. Now knowing that you don’t need to work that hard if you work a lot more efficiently. And you could do that without lying or cheating.

[00:09:35] ’cause it makes, makes all sorts of sense to me. So, uh, I guess maybe that’s, um, some of what drives me in the backend.

[00:09:43] Dwight: Oh, that’s great. Learned behaviour. I started working for my dad at 12 as well. Um, plus on top of that, add a paper route that, you know, it may not seem like a business, but I had to collect money.

[00:09:54] I had to take care of the clients and customers. And it was literally ingrained in me in how you treat people and about lying and cheating. My dad was the same way and he had a huge, huge business. And I had the same opportunity. I could have taken it over, but I walked away from it. When I was older, I decided it wasn’t the thing I really wanted to do.

[00:10:17] It didn’t make my heart sing. Right. So, no disrespect to my, my dad and my mom, they’re both still alive. 85. Um, but at the end of the day, we have to find our own place in this world. Right? Absolutely have to. So one of the things that, so you ended up selling scuba diving equipment right across Australia.

[00:10:42] What drew you was, was what your parents did. Was that what drew you into being in sales? Is that what was the biggest magnetic thing for you?

[00:10:52] Partrick: Probably, yeah, I would say so just seeing that around me and it, and you know, we say sales and it is sales, but you know, as you know, a lot of people have a, a bit of an, a adverse adversity to that word, as in they, they think it’s twisting people’s arms and that sort of stuff.

[00:11:07] I just hear helping people, you know, if, I mean, if you come into a paint and wallpaper shop, well, you want to create something at home that you’re proud of and you feel comfortable in and, and, and we’re just there to help you. And I guess, you know, I think that should apply in all businesses. You just trying to help people.

[00:11:25] But yeah, no, no doubt. That’s, that’s probably something that put that in the forefront of my mind and I certainly never mind helping people.

[00:11:33] Dwight: Yeah. Those listening or watching, you’re selling yourself every single day, every moment of your day, every moment of your life. You’re selling yourself to your significant other.

[00:11:42] You’re selling yourself to your friends, you’re selling yourself to your clients, to your boss, to your aunt and uncle. And it’s not a bad thing. I don’t know how the word is becoming, become so tainted in so many people’s mouth. Right. Or how disrespectful they are when they go into stores. When somebody comes over like a paint and wallpaper shop and says, Hey, can I help you out?

[00:12:03] And they feel like you’re pressuring them. Well, no, you’re there to assist them. That is part of the sales process. Right. So I appreciate, that’s why I wanted to ask, because I like hearing other people’s interpretations of what sales means to them and why it is so important. So one of the things though, you were frustrated at how much effort you were putting in for so little result, and you refused to solve it by lying or cheating as you had mentioned.

[00:12:30] What was it like the first time you actually encountered Dr. Cialdini’s work and did it feel like the answer right away to you?

[00:12:40] Partrick: Um, thanks for asking. So the, the way I first encountered it was, um, what was interesting, my bo, so I was working for a wholesaler in scuba diving equipment for the brand Oceanic.

[00:12:51] They’re still around, lovely dive equipment. And, um, so I was a sales rep and I was looking after the states of Victoria, south Australia, and Tasmania, which is not the whole of Australia, but it is one p one big piece. And, um, my boss wanted to grow his business and so he had hired a business coach, um, business consultant to help him with that and good, good on him, right?

[00:13:16] It’s good to get outside perspectives and, and put us back on track and help us work on our vision. And this gentleman, I, I, I hope he’s still around, but he was, uh, quite mature back then. His name was John McDonald. And, uh, he was a former business partner of Jay Abraham, who of course we’ve, uh, might have all heard of.

[00:13:35] And he came up with a strategy that, well, he did some observing of, of people who ran dive shops. And he said, well, they’re all lovely people, but they don’t necessarily know how to run a business really well. And so the concept he came up with was to train us sales reps. To be sort of a low level business coach to help our retailers actually grow and double their business.

[00:14:04] And so we were trained to do sales training with our retailers. Um, so it took the whole relationship to a whole different angle, which was quite nice. And, uh, anyway, John was, um, based in Vermont, in, uh, in Melbourne, and I was also based in Melbourne. And so, uh, John had said, uh, well, listen, Patrick, if, uh, you know, with the strategies that we’re, uh, teaching all you sales reps to implement with the, with the retailers, if you’ve got any questions or you wanna talk about something, uh, just come by the office.

[00:14:36] Well, I dunno if you’ve ever been on holiday, uh, Dwight, where you’ve burned, where you’ve bumped into a Dutch person, and you know, you might say, you know, if you’re ever in Alberta right, you need a place to stay. Come over to our place. Right? Don’t do that with Dutch people. They turn up free accommodation.

[00:14:59] Um, so anyway, uh, John had invited me, oh, if you ever need any assistance, wanna talk about something? And I, I figured this guy was expensive, right? So you invite me, I come. And so he was, I mean, back then we had, you know, educational series, you know, cassette tapes, CDs, and they were expensive back then, right?

[00:15:23] Nowadays you can go and get an, uh, you know, uh, like audio audible or something. You can get a, a voice file for a few dollars and learn amazing things. I remember paying $1,200 for a set of Brian Tracy CDs, right? So very expensive. And so he had a lot of those. And so he started lending me these series, which I really appreciated.

[00:15:46] And of course I had very, very long drives to do. So the car was like the rolling university, as we would call that. And, uh, so I was always listening to stuff. And amongst one of these series is that it was lending me, um, was a, a cassette tape series from an event called Mind Capture that happened in Los Angeles before the turn of the century.

[00:16:07] And, um, two cassette tapes on there of Dr. Chelini explaining the science of persuasion. And I loved it. It was so, I still love it. Uh, it’s just so cool. I mean, you, you can recognise yourself in it because we’re all human beings. Um, but the simplicity of it or how, how absolutely stupid some reactions of us can be is, is really interesting.

[00:16:30] So it fascinated me to no end. And then, um, I was actually, uh, faced with a bit of a challenge I had taken on an additional brand. Uh, this was a brand of dry diving suits. Uh, for those who don’t scuba dive, a dry diving suit seals on your neck and your wrists. You wear whatever you want underneath it to keep you warm based on what water temperature you’re going into.

[00:16:55] A little bit more complicated to dive because the air can move around in the suit a little bit. But I’ve used a lot of these suits in the past. I’ve used them in the military, in the Netherlands, recreationally, different suits in Australia. And this suit was called Hot and Dry. Uh, it was honestly the best designed dry diving suit I’d ever seen.

[00:17:15] And I, I, and I still think about it that way, but I’d taken it on. I was all excited and I walk into my retailers and, uh, you know, proudest punches say, oh, I’ve taken on representation of hot and dry. And they laughed at me and I go, well, after last year’s debacle, we’re not touching that again. I go, what are you talking about?

[00:17:38] And so I didn’t know this, but the year before, the inside membrane that’s supposed to keep you dry, they changed manufacturers trying to save some costs and the new material is all delaminated and all the suits they sold the year before had leaked and they all had to be replaced. And so my retailers go, you know, you’re a nice fella.

[00:17:58] ’cause I knew me already, but we’re not touching that again. And so here I was, I’ve got this awesome suit, um, made in Australia. So for Australians, you know, um, economically priced because there’s no wholesaler in the middle. How am I gonna turn this around? And that was exactly when I’d sort of, you know, worked my way through the material of Dr.

[00:18:20] Cialdini. And so, um, I, I went to work and so I, you know, looking at the situation, what have I got available here that I can ethically bring to the surface, what I can make people aware of, things that I might be able to do in the situation? And anyway, to make a long story short, in about 18 months we were market leader in that suit.

[00:18:41] We were in that, uh, in that market where we were selling so many suits. Um, so ever since converted, you know, um, loved it for life and, uh, I’ve, since learning it always had that need to sort of pass it on to people. So where we were being trained to be sort of sales trainers, um, actually reached out to Dr.

[00:19:03] Cina via email. Um, you could still find his email address on a website for Arizona State University back then. I remember looking him up on my four and a half gigabyte compact lap laptop, uh, with CD Drive. It was very exciting. And um, I emailed him and I thought I’d never hear back from that gentleman.

[00:19:22] But yeah, the next day there was an email, um, oh, nice to hear that you’ve had such success with my work. And I said, ah, I’ve just got this need to pass it on to other people. And he said, well, you know, just, uh, you know, just let people know where you got it from, you know, good luck with your endeavours. So since then I’ve started, you know, educating people, uh, about the science of persuasion.

[00:19:44] Dwight: Yeah, it’s what a story though. And then to get to a point, which we’ll discuss in a few minutes, to be one of his certified trainers in something that you just randomly got given to you to listen to is amazing how those little seeds in life are there. But you took the opportunity to water, right, to water that seed, to learn, to grow, to apply, to make a difference.

[00:20:11] Good on you. Right? So many people just let things pass them by and they have regrets when they’re older and go, oh, we had nothing ever went our way. And some of these people, I know them when they say this stuff and I know the different opportunities they had. They just didn’t know how to car diem. They didn’t know how to seize the day.

[00:20:31] Right? So congratulations. I love it. So for someone who has never studied this, the science of ethical persuasion, what is the actual difference between persuasion as a science and persuasion as most people imagine it, a natural talent. Some people just have.

[00:20:50] Partrick: Yes. Great. Um, great thing to dive in first, and I think we should also pull in the fact that when a lot of people hear the word persuasion, what they hear is manipulation.

[00:21:03] And that’s absolutely not the same thing as in with manipulation. You could say, we’re trying to give somebody no choice. Where persuasion is, we are giving people options and we’re hoping that they will make a yes decision that’s based on their own values. And the the great thing about that is that when somebody makes a decision to do something from within, when you walk away, they’re gonna stay changed.

[00:21:32] They’re not gonna revert back to what they were doing before. Uh, a good example is, you know, the, the, the boss, right? The boss is in authority and the employees really should do what the boss asks. But when they do that, and it doesn’t come from within, when the boss walks away, things revert back to the way they were.

[00:21:54] Uh, one of my colleagues, um, has a, a nice test that he used to do with his team. Uh, you know, if you are the leader, walk away and see if your meetings are still conducted in the exact same way that you would like them to be done. When everything is different, you, you, you haven’t been persuasive, you’ve been using force, which is, you know, the hierarchy, using force to get people to behave a certain way.

[00:22:19] So we want to persuade people so that they make the decision from within. And persuasion could be described as using words and images to increase the chances that people will say yes to us. So it is, it’s not that, ah, I’m having a discussion with a single individual. They said no to me, as in they didn’t want what I had to offer, or they’re not doing the behaviour that I ask them to do.

[00:22:47] Because persuasion is not per se about sales. It’s, it’s actually about behaviour that can be buying behaviour, which makes it very valuable, of course, in sales. But it could also be getting your employees to use the new safety procedures that have been implemented or something. Uh, or creating more loyalty and coherency within a team.

[00:23:11] That’s all behaviour, and that’s where persuasion applies. So, um. We can, we can try and force people to do that, but it doesn’t really work really well. We want that decision to come from, um, yeah, from within. And so what you were saying, well, is it a natural talent? That’s also what a lot of people think.

[00:23:33] They, you know, there’s just certain individuals that can walk into a room and, you know, change everybody’s opinion around. Um, but when you ask ’em, how do you do that, they often can’t explain it to you. They can’t teach it to other people. And if you dissect it, they, they typically use maybe one or two principles.

[00:23:54] And only a few strategies from within those principles. I mean, there’s seven principles of persuasion and probably a dozen different strategies or application methods within each, and they’ve just stumbled across a couple that work really well for them. And so they also get confidence with that. And, and that works really well.

[00:24:13] But the, the good thing is that persuasion is a science and therefore it can be taught and therefore it can be learned. And the best example is probably Dr. Cialdini himself. Uh, he’s not your, you know, uh, I mean he is an energetic gentleman, but he is not your sort of personality that you would associate with a natural persuader that just walks into a room and changes everybody’s opinions.

[00:24:41] Uh, he’s, if anything, a bit of a, um, introverted university professor, but he’s probably the most persuasive person in the world. He’s certainly been paid the most for it, I’m sure. Um, so yeah, this is something everybody can learn. And on top of that, it’s not just business related. This is an important life skill in every part of your life.

[00:25:05] If you’re trying to convince the family on where we’re gonna go on a holiday next year, or you want your teenager to clean up their room, right, you’re gonna have to be persuasive. So it, it works there as well.

[00:25:19] Dwight: Man, I wish I would’ve had that as a single dad raising my five kids full time. Uh, yeah, I probably could have used some of those persuasion skills, like you said, clean your room or do the dishes or let’s, uh, it’s, it’s shocking though, how much learned behaviour or you know, how people in life assume things.

[00:25:43] There’s so much assumption, right? About persuasion, about anything manipulation. And usually it’s because they have somebody that’s got a broke mindset that’s educating ’em, or they’ve had some sort of attraction to this person and, and something they said really stuck with them or was the truth. So then everything else they said after the fact was the truth.

[00:26:07] And, and I’ve just seen this time and time again. So those that are listening or watching, you know, the seven universal principles of a persuasion, those watching, you can see it in the background. Patrick has it listed there. Um. And I’m reading it myself and looking at it and thinking to myself, wow, some of that is so simple, but yet most people will just let it go over their head like an aeroplane.

[00:26:32] Right? It’s just gonna fly by and they’ll, and you, you deserve more. Those listening are watching. So we’re gonna get into a little bit more about these seven principles. Obviously we don’t have a lot of time, so we might have to have Patrick back on just to go through them, uh, and with more specifics. But what, so without turning this into lecture today, so we can get through some other things, go ahead and read off the seven principles, but which of those principles, ’cause you said that, you also mentioned that sometimes people just grab onto a couple of them.

[00:27:04] Is there any specific principles that you could discuss today that, you know, someone sees and, and in every conversation or interacts with?

[00:27:15] Partrick: Yeah, sure. Let’s, let’s run through it and, and let’s just see where it takes us. So there’s seven principles of persuasion. We, we call them universal because they work in all languages, all cultures in all countries.

[00:27:30] Um, which is, you know, a, a VA valuable concept, right? Because within our own country we’ve got different cultures, but it’s also very easy to deal and communicate with people in other countries. So this is something that works everywhere. And, um, yeah, as you mentioned from reading the list, uh, behind me all these words, you know, you’ve heard of it before.

[00:27:54] You might know the concept of it. And it’s very easy, and I’m sure there’s lots of people that have read Doctor that are listening to this, who have actually read Dr. Cialdini’s book, influence a Psychology of Persuasion as first published in 1984, um, sold over 7 million copies by now in 48 different languages, and is considered by many top CEOs to be the best business book ever written.

[00:28:19] And what I, um, recently discussed with someone is that certainly in business, you can learn things to do business, but what you learn five years ago is probably completely irrelevant. Now, where this increases in value, because persuasion has been important to us since the dawn, the time, and it’s not gonna go away.

[00:28:44] But because our world is getting more and more overloaded with information, people actually respond more readily to the information that those principles represent. And so they make it easier for people to make a decision more so than ever before. So if you invested in learning this skill 10 years ago, you’re still using it now, and then you’ll actually get more success with it now compared to 10 years ago.

[00:29:13] Because how our brain works hasn’t changed, but the input we’re getting has changed, which made this more important. So these, these seven principles, I’ll, I’ll roll ’em off real quick. For those who are listening, we’ve got reciprocity, liking, unity, social proof, authority, consistency, and scarcity. Now all these principles have activators things that turn them on and they have amplifiers, things that make ’em work harder.

[00:29:47] Um, so we can go through, uh, what would you like to do, shall we, uh, dive in, see where it takes us or, sure. Do you want me to

[00:29:55] Dwight: Sure. Pick, pick something because there is other things I want to discuss and we’re gonna run outta time. Obviously I have no issues with having you on a second time. Um, and us go into it more in depth.

[00:30:08] But pick something that you would figure one or two of ’em that would be something that you would really want to focus on in this conversation right now.

[00:30:19] Partrick: Um, well,

[00:30:20] Dwight: maybe not that they’re not all important. I know they’re all

[00:30:22] Partrick: important.

[00:30:23] Dwight: I don’t want to disrespect that.

[00:30:25] Partrick: If we’re gonna do a, a second one, let, let’s do your audience a big favour and let’s first discuss how decisions are actually made that’ll make ’em understand why this stuff is this powerful.

[00:30:41] Dwight: Sounds good.

[00:30:41] Partrick: Sounds good.

[00:30:42] Dwight: Yeah.

[00:30:42] Partrick: Okay, cool. Alright, so I’m gonna lean on the work of a professor Daniel Kahneman, who unfortunately died a couple of years ago. Uh, but he won a Noble Prize in economics in 2002. And it was for people who are not too familiar with noble prizes. Um, the, um, it was a little bit surprising, as in he was a professor in psychology and a behavioural scientist.

[00:31:11] So how does they get nominated for an a Nobel Prize in Economics? Um, that was because a lot of his study was about the decision making process and, um, decisions shape economics. So that’s where the, where the link was. And so basically old economics had a, um, had a belief that he disproved old economics, thought that human beings are logical, rational creatures and they would therefore use logic and reason to formulate their decisions.

[00:31:46] Then yo Kahneman demonstrated that that’s not the way, um, that it actually is. So he explains it in terms of decision making this way and it’s, I can relate that to your audience so they understand. So when it comes to decision making, your brain, your audience’s brain, and when I say audience, I don’t necessarily mean an audience in a theatre, right?

[00:32:09] The audience is the recipient of your communication, right? So could be an audience as in a, in a theatre style setting, but it could also be your employees. It could be potential client you’re talking to. It could be a teenage child or your partner, right? Whoever receives your communication. We all have two parts of our brain when it comes to decision making.

[00:32:32] We have system one and system two. System one is fast. It is an unconscious brain that works outside of our conscious control and it works automatically in making decisions and it uses a lot of shortcuts or rules of thumb to make decisions, things that have proven to be right most of the time. It takes very little effort to run System one.

[00:33:00] Um, and so we use it for everyday decisions, but because it uses shortcuts, rules of thumb, it does sometimes get it wrong. So we do say it’s error prone. Lemme jump to system two and I’ll come back to system one. System two on the other hand, is slow in its thinking. It costs a lot of energy to run system two.

[00:33:27] And, uh, Daniel Kama referred to it as the Lazy Controller. It doesn’t actually want to engage. It’s quite happy for system one to make the decisions, and if it gets too difficult or red flags go up, then system two will kick in. So it’s slow costs a lot of energy. This is conscious thinking where system one was unconscious, um, and system two is more reliable.

[00:33:52] It looks at all the available information and comes up with the most reliable answer to this situation. Okay, so let me jump back to system one. Let me talk about the shortcuts that System One uses. So we have either within us from evolution or learned from our environment, shortcuts, rules of thumb that has served us well in the past.

[00:34:22] One such shortcut might be expensive equals good, right? We’ve learned from experience that if you buy something that’s cheap, chances are it’s not gonna last that long. It’s not that good. And, uh, it might not be suited to purpose so well, right? We know if we spend more money on something, chances are it’s better quality, it’s gonna last us much longer.

[00:34:44] So if we’re going through an aisle in a, I don’t know, Hi-Fi shop or, um, hardware store doesn’t matter. And we’re, we’re faced by a decision we need to make that we really don’t know anything about. I dunno, by a, a front door for your house. You could in that moment delay your decision. You could leave the hardware store and you could go to the library and you could start reading up about timber types, door construction, glass types, vanishes paint, all that sort of stuff.

[00:35:20] Maybe you do some workshops and how to make doors, and then five months later you could come back to the hardware store and make a well-educated decision about which door to buy. But I dunno about you, I don’t have the time for that. So in that moment of needing to decide which door am I gonna pick, what could happen is that that rule bubbles up in the back of my head and goes, Hey, you know what?

[00:35:42] Expensive equals good. So I was thinking about spending this much. If I just add a bit more to the budget and I just pick that next door that’s a little bit more expensive, I’ll probably have done the right thing here today. And that’s exactly what will happen. You will probably have done the right thing because most of the time more expensive things are better.

[00:36:05] Not all the time though, sometimes more expensive things are still rubbish, right? But most of the time that rule holds up. And because it holds up most of the time, that is a tempting shortcut for us to get to a quicker decision. And so the other door goes into my trolley and I turn the corner into another aisle where I’m faced with another decision about something that I don’t know much about, and I’m exactly in the same situation.

[00:36:33] So that’s an example of a shortcut. Another example of a shortcut would be if a lot of other people are doing it, that must be the right thing to do, right? Because we know most of the time if a lot of other people are choosing to do something, there must be value to that. We must be safer when we’re doing that.

[00:36:55] A classic example, you are walking through a, uh, uh, a town, um, that you haven’t been to before. You got your partner with you and you’re looking for a place to go have food, have two restaurants in front of you, one’s completely empty, one’s half filled with people. Which one do you not go into? The empty one, right?

[00:37:16] Because, well, they all went there. Maybe there’s something wrong with the other one. Or maybe they have a great deal on at the moment or, you know, whatever it is. You could go interview people on the street and say, oh, you know anything about these two restaurants? Or you can try and look up if, uh, consumer affairs is any, uh, complaints about food poisoning.

[00:37:37] I no, you haven’t got the time. The, the visual of just seeing more people in one restaurant over the other is enough for you to make a decision. It’s a shortcut. Great. So System One runs a lot on those shortcuts. And so system two, our logical, rational part of the brain uses, um, available information. Now, you would like to think that especially when it was an important big decision, that we use logic and reason to formulate our decisions, and Daniel Kahneman demonstrated back in 2002 or before that that 90%, nine zero, 90% of our decisions are made by system one automatically, subconsciously outside of our conscious control.

[00:38:27] And it’s now said that that’s 95% or even more. Now, first of all, we should wonder, wow, I mean, how many decisions can you make on autopilot for goodness sake? But you might also wonder why is this percentage increasing? And that has to do with our attention span. I mentioned earlier our, our world’s overloaded with information.

[00:38:52] And Dr. Cialdini, uh, he described that is we live in the most information overloaded, stimulus saturated environment that has ever existed on the planet, and every year That’s true. Um, and so we get so much information thrown at us that we have so many decisions to make. And a good example is, is the, the smartphone, right?

[00:39:19] I mean, the internet had a big impact on us, as in a lot of information, a lot of ability to make decisions about things more quickly. And the smartphone Yeah, couldn’t, it was like the nail in the coffin, right? We, we need to make a phone call. We unlock that thing. Then we, um, you know, there’s like 35 apps that pop up asking us to make a decision.

[00:39:40] If we want to interact with our, with that, then goodness, we might open one. And so now this app tells us about this, about that message from him, message from her. There’s a video link, link to this, link to that. You’re on another website. 20 minutes later, you put the phone down and you go, what did I pick that thing up for?

[00:39:58] Right? You can’t even remember, right? And, and you didn’t last very long before you were off track. And so our dis our attention span is getting shorter. In the twenties, we had an attention span of 20 minutes. Have you got any idea what the attention span of the goldfish is supposed to be?

[00:40:16] Dwight: Eight seconds.

[00:40:18] Partrick: Uh, yeah. Nine seconds for the goldfish, eight

[00:40:21] Dwight: seconds for humans.

[00:40:22] Partrick: Eight, seven seconds for us. We by the goldfish. Um, and so what that means is that we lean very heavily on that system. One that, that intuitive part of the brain, and here comes the big problem. Here’s the punchline. After all this, when you don’t know the science and you’re contemplating how you’re going to convince someone about whatever it is you want to con, you know, persuade them, convince them about.

[00:40:58] When you’re thinking about that, you’re using conscious thought. So you’re using system two in that moment. And system two has the annoying habit, you could say, to come up with rationale, with arguments that would need system two in the other person to process that information. And they don’t have the time for that anymore.

[00:41:29] And so when we present, if we fill our persuasive arguments with things that fall into the logic and reason category, as in it’s gonna save you money, it’s gonna be good for the environment, right? Um, when we do that, we actually create more uncertainty in our audience. Because they now have to engage system two to deal with it.

[00:41:56] And they, they haven’t got the time for it. They haven’t got the bandwidth. They throw it in a too hard basket. They, they push back from you and you’re wonderful, genuinely good for them. Good value proposal. They decide not to decide. And so if you, in a period of time, if you make a thousand proposals, it could be anything.

[00:42:18] It could be your lead generating efforts, it could be a sales call you have with someone or a face-to-face meeting or a speech that you give to your staff to do things this week a certain way. When you do a thousand proposals in any given period of time, you might get a, especially if it’s in sales, a small amount of yeses out of all those pitches.

[00:42:40] And so therefore it will be easy to say, well then the, the rest of them were nos. I would argue that’s not actually the case. You’d be horrified to find out how many of those nos were not nos at all. They were indecision people decided not to decide instead of just giving them logic and reason that is trying to engage system two of their brain.

[00:43:04] It’s only in charge of 5% of the decisions. What might actually happen if you just gave them a piece of information that system one could go, Hey, that applies to a shortcut. If I do this, that’ll probably be good enough for me. And the decision is made. Right? And that’s why the impact of using persuasion science can produce such large results.

[00:43:30] Um, Bose, for example, uh, Bose had a, an advertising campaign that was really underperforming and, and good on them. They re recognised that. And then Dr. Cini looked at the ad, he changed, it was very technical ad, but he changed only the headline because it subconsciously worked against Bose and he just changed the headline.

[00:43:52] You’re using a principle of persuasion that worked in Bose’s favour and sales went up by 45% with a headline. Just because it now gave a piece of information system one could make an easier yes. Decision with. Um, so this whole story of how decisions are made, highlights to us that people are leaning more and more heavily on system one.

[00:44:21] And the principles of persuasion are basically categories of information categories that help us to identify that type of information that functions as shortcuts for people. So what we want to do, we want to use our system to our full brain power. To also come up with information that qualifies for system one in our audience, not just system two.

[00:44:53] And when we do that, big things can happen.

[00:44:57] Dwight: Wow. I’m looking forward to the second episode where we’ll actually dive into it. ’cause I think it deserves its own, um, uniqueness, its own time, just because of the fact that I can imagine, as you mentioned, there’s so many different layers of those seven, um, universal principles of persuasion.

[00:45:19] I’m really a person that’s into learning about human nature and how we think and how we process stuff. And I don’t take any of it lightly.

[00:45:29] I take it very serious, not so serious that, um, it engulfs my life, but it enhances my life. Right? That’s what I tell people, knowledge and education. And it is, it gives you power, it impacts you in a positive way, and you just have to be open-minded. You have to be the willing to understand that everything you’ve learned could be half truth.

[00:45:54] It could be all wrong. It could be, you know, it’s time to continue to grow and move forward in life. And I like how you mentioned about persuasion changing you for the, you know, it continues to grow within you. Right? It, it’s not something that changes, it’s something that you constantly use to stay on the climb.

[00:46:12] And I appreciate it how you, uh, explain that.

[00:46:16] Partrick: Yeah. And, and everything we’ve covered before and, and what’s coming, it’s all based on scientific evidence. There’s nearly a hundred years worth of research on this area. I

[00:46:26] Dwight: love it.

[00:46:27] Partrick: Um, so there’s no, no Patrick gut feelings. Um, you know, the, I mean, we may simplify things with examples to make it easier to digest, but it’s all, all based on research

[00:46:39] Dwight: somewhere that somewhere the spark has to ignite, right?

[00:46:43] Something has to be an, uh, an ignition system for people. So those examples and the way that you’ve been explaining things is great. If somebody, um, gets a little spark, a little ember in their heart and or in their mindset and wants to grow, you’ve accomplished, I have accomplished what this podcast is designed to do, to give a heck about people that they deserve to grow outside of their circumstances.

[00:47:08] I’m not saying everybody that listens. Wants to grow outside of their circumstances, but most people that listen to my show want to give a heck. So I, I’ll, I’ll make an assumption that majority of the people that are gonna watch or listen to this are gonna be hanging on this and waiting for a second episode.

[00:47:26] But what we’re gonna jump into now is your book, how to Hear. Yes. More than often, I know myself, um, I found writing my book was very cathartic, right? Writing my own book was one of the most, again, cathartic things I’d ever done. There were moments that caught me off guard, memories. I hadn’t let myself sit in for years and quiet little celebrations I never told anybody about small wins.

[00:47:51] Nobody, nobody saw but me. So when a, you know, when a guest has written their own book, I always wanna know what process actually cost them and what it gave them as well.

[00:48:03] Partrick: We, um, um, how yes, more often was a, a joint effort, uh, between myself and, uh, some other of the, um, certified coaches and trainers. And we didn’t wanna write a book explaining how the science of persuasion works, because you know, Dr.

[00:48:20] Cialdini wrote the definitive text on that. And if you, if you don’t have that book influence, even as an audio book, you really should listen. It’s quite entertaining actually. It’s way of writing. It’s a very easy to digest. And you’ll every now and then have to push that jaw back up from, from things you’ve heard.

[00:48:37] It’s very interesting. Um, but, so we wanted to write something to complement his book. The book Influence Explains the Science, but it was mostly written as a sort of a self-defense book. Um, I mean, bless, uh, Bob, he, when he wrote the book as in who is his audience, he actually wrote it for the people that, you know, the everyday people that were supporting the university.

[00:49:06] He felt like there was something to be reciprocated that he should give back. So, you know, it was an academic circle. It wasn’t normally not really done for, you know, a professor to write a book, to explain to normal people how this works. Um, so yeah, this book was written as a self-defense book. It certainly can help you to implement things.

[00:49:29] And after the book was published, especially people in business really latched onto it, um, because it also highlighted that there’s no need to lie or cheat, right? You can do this in a much more effective way, ethically. And what I’m always happy to highlight is that research shows that you can use this unethically and it might produce short-term results, but it tends to produce long-term disaster because people don’t come back to a situation where they didn’t do good in the arrangement.

[00:50:03] Where research shows that if we use this ethically, it produces short term results and long term success and creates long lasting loyal relationships. So it also makes the business world, um, a better place, I suppose. So we didn’t wanna write something that, you know, was rehashing all that. So with howdy go, yes.

[00:50:26] More often we did some something to compliment the book influence, and that is to give people ideas on how to use this in practise. And so, my chapter in the book, for example, I, I di you know, I, I dissect in quite detail that story that I touched on before when I was a sales rep and I had this, this dry diving suit that my, my retailers laughed at when I walked through the door.

[00:50:54] What did I do? How did I turn that around? And so, in great detail, I go, what, what I did, what I looked for, which principles I used, how did I turn that around? Were some of my other co-authors. Come at this topic at a completely different angle. Uh, Leo Ami from, uh, Dubai or, um, famous speaker, uh, or, you know, or popular speaker, uh, he takes it from a presenting point of view.

[00:51:23] If you’re on stage, how do you use persuasion science? Uh, John Doba, he takes it from, if you’re an introvert and you need to talk to someone or do something in sales, how do you use persuasion? So everybody comes from a different angle, so it makes it a nice combination. So if you haven’t got Dr.

[00:51:42] Cialdini’s book yet, uh, it’d be a nice combination to have. How do you Yes. More often with it. Read influence first and then venture into how do hear Yes. More often.

[00:51:52] Dwight: Uh, sounds great. So in order to, so they compliment one another, basically, like you said, your book is gonna give real life examples through storytelling, which is one of the most powerful ways to share information, um, itself, though you touched a little bit about what I was gonna get into about ethical persuasion, and you mentioned earlier it’s not manipulation.

[00:52:16] What does it look like? What, what could you tell us more about the fact of what it actually looks like in practise? Giving us an example of, of the differences between manipulation and ethical persuasion?

[00:52:31] Partrick: Okay. Um, maybe, so we’ve touched on something and a strategy before we close off here. Let me, let me weave this into this example.

[00:52:39] So the way I see that ethical persuasion is practised is that, first of all, we need to know the science. We need to know what these principles are in which, how they work, right? So for example, social proof, I mentioned before, if a lot of other people are doing something, it must be true, must be right, right?

[00:52:59] This rule of social proof we can describe as saying, people have a tendency to follow the actions of others, especially when they are numerous, when they are similar to us and when we are uncertain, right? Um, so we react to what others are doing. Scarcity, for example, says that we value things more that are rare, that are scarce, that are dwindling in availability.

[00:53:29] And so what we might look for when we’re writing an email or we’re designing a brochure or we’re making a website. How am I going to convince someone to start scrolling on my website, for example? It’s, it’s a little entertaining to realise that a lot of people think that when they eventually succeed getting someone to their website, that they’ll all start scrolling.

[00:54:00] You’ll be horrified how many people end up on your website, give it a second or two, and then go, nah, not for me, and they’re gone. Right? They don’t always scroll. And so testimonials are popular on websites, right? And that’s, that’s good ’cause that’s social proof. It’s the behaviour of others who’ve already used you and were happy.

[00:54:19] But you find those further down the page, they’ll never see them, right? So what people show, uh, it’s called above the fold, the area, you see, without scrolling, it is crucial that you have some persuasive information there to just motivate people to start scrolling, to go further down. And so maybe you could use scarcity in that moment to say, Hey, you know, there’s something to be missed out on by not reading on, or, you know, using our service.

[00:54:49] So you, you’re looking for what elements to bring to the surface. But the, the tricky part isn’t necessarily, it’s not tricky, but what a lot of people that don’t know the science don’t understand, they’ll often ask, what’s the most powerful principle? Well, there is no most powerful principle because it depends on the situation.

[00:55:10] You either or, no, sorry, not either. You, there’s, let’s say three stages to getting somebody to do a certain action or hoping that they will, first of all, you need to have a relationship with them, right? If they don’t like you, well it’s gonna be a lot harder to motivate people to do something. So relationship building is important.

[00:55:30] Once their relationship is there, they like you, they love you. Now uncertainty is our problem because people will not be clear on that. What it is you’re suggesting is a good idea for them. So it’s uncertainty that we need to reduce. And there’s other principles which are great at that. They’re your go-to principles for that.

[00:55:49] So now let’s say if we have a good relationship, we’ve reduced uncertainty, right? People love you, love your product or your service, but they’re still not buying it. Now, motivation is lacking, right? So there’s other principles that look that are go-to principles for motivating people into action. And I love asking this of a, a room full of people.

[00:56:12] If I can get you the tools to build strong relationships, to reduce people’s uncertainty and to motivate them into action. Is there anything else you need? And there’s a whole quiet room and everybody comes up with blanks. So it’s, we need to be aware of the situation we are in, where are we in terms of relationship, uncertainty and motivation?

[00:56:42] And then we need to pick the principles that help us at that moment in time, which also explains why AI is, in my experience, lousy at this. ’cause it has no situational awareness and it makes stuff up. And then we go into unethical things constantly,

[00:56:56] Dwight: constantly makes things up.

[00:56:58] Partrick: So annoying. Um, so we need to find pieces of information, just bring it to the surface.

[00:57:05] Let me give you one example, uh, of how that works. So there was a company who was doing home assessments for insulation value, as in how well is your home insulated? And it would then give people an opportunity to insulate their house fully. And so after they’d done the assessment, which took a fair bit of time, people were instructed on what the financial consequences were of making a change or not.

[00:57:33] And so half the people were told, uh, and of course the, the dollar value would vary per home. But let’s say that one, let’s, let’s use it as an example. $1 per day. So half of the people were told, if you insulate your house fully, you’ll be able to save a dollar a day. The other half of the people we’re told, if you fail to insulate your house fully, you will lose a dollar a day.

[00:58:01] 150% more people insulated their house fully with the loss instruction instead of the gain in structure. Because scarcity, we value things more that are rare, you know, uh, scared, um, d dwindling and availability things that we lose. And so by ethically highlighting that it’s the same dollar, but if you don’t insulate that, you’re basically gonna have less dollars in your wallet by the end of the year.

[00:58:35] That made system one pay attention, and therefore, a lot more people cooperated.

[00:58:42] Dwight: Wow, I can’t imagine what our second conversation is gonna be like because I have, I, I didn’t show you prior, but I write everything down. I put a lot of effort into having a flow of the conversation. I’ve jumped around a little bit here ’cause I wanted to get enough information to make sure that people are gonna come back.

[00:59:03] So next episode, we’re gonna end up talking about obviously the centre seven universal principles of persuasion and more in depth, um, the real world cost of getting it wrong, which we’ve touched a little bit on. And teaching the next generation is something I really want to go over on our next episode.

[00:59:20] So hopefully we have more time and, uh, we get our schedules a little bit more, uh, in tune because, uh, I, I believe you have so much great information. Um, I’m excited. Um, we’re not even, we have only scratched the surface in my opinion of, uh, what you can educate and teach the listeners and viewers and myself.

[00:59:41] Um, the good

[00:59:41] Partrick: stuff’s coming.

[00:59:42] Dwight: Yes, the good stuff is coming. So I’m gonna leave the, some of the closing questions I ask people till our next episode. Um, and I just wanna say, you know, Patrick, thank you for coming on. Um, those listening are watching. We will do a part two to this. Um, you’ll be able to hear it next week after you’ve listened to this one.

[01:00:03] So I look forward to, I love having two, part episodes. I’ve done it quite a few times over the last five and a half years. And, uh, resoundingly people come back more than people realise, right? Those that are listening, watching. If you truly have a spark or any interest and it’s made you even feel like, I call it the warm and fuzzies, I feel it in my chest, right?

[01:00:27] I know you’ll be back and you’re always welcome at the Give a Heck podcast.

[01:00:31] Partrick: For, for those listening, if, if, if a week feels too long, um, of course I have a website, ethical persuasion.com au, um, where you can get more information. There’s also a free section with some complimentary, um, things you can access.

[01:00:48] There’s a downloadable ebook that you don’t even have to put your name or your email address in for. You can just right click and download. There’s an email, seven day email challenge where you get a nugget of gold every day. And what we’re working to establish, and by the time this airs that should be there, um, is we’re giving people, I have a, a 12 month programme where people get a little nugget of persuasion goal, the strategy to use every week.

[01:01:13] And they have access to live q and a calls with me to make sure that they’re understanding it right. Um, we’re giving people five weeks of complimentary access to that, including the q and a calls. Um, so you can also access that through the website. And of course I have my own podcast as well, ethical Persuasion Unlocked, so.

[01:01:33] But, uh, fantastic. We’re gonna have a powerful episode. So here with Dwight, condensing everything right on together.

[01:01:39] Dwight: Those that are new to the Give a Heck podcast, go to give a heck.com, go to the top hit podcast and you’ll find everything you need to know about Patrick there.

[01:01:49] I put in those that are familiar with the show, very detailed show notes. There’ll be chapter summaries, all his social media links, everything he just talked about on Ensure is in there as well to make, make it so that you can connect. You don’t have to wait for episode two to get, you know, to give a heck to, to take that baby step forward, right?

[01:02:11] Start today.

[01:02:12] Partrick: Yeah. And, uh, and, and if, if I could put a request in of those Sure. Listening, if it is not per se about this episode, but any episode you’ve listened to before. I mean, Dwight’s been doing this for a long time. If you value what you learn here, I, I know as a, as a, as a podcast host, sometimes it’s a little bit quiet in terms of getting feedback from your audience.

[01:02:35] Oh my goodness, what would love you if you’d left a testimonial or review on this show about what it is you value out of this? Why do you keep coming back listening to this? Um, and that could be about this episode or, or any other. Um, but yeah, we as hosts would always really appreciate hearing from you that way.

[01:02:57] Dwight: I love it. I don’t get very many guests that do what you just did. Normally I go and read a spiel that I just wrote here, and I don’t even have to, um, those listening and watching. I do appreciate it. I appreciate when you subscribe to the YouTube channel. I appreciate when you leave reviews on your favourite podcast platform.

[01:03:18] Um, it is so simplistic. If you go into the show notes, there’s even a link to rate, rate my podcast, right? You can, it’ll, you click on that link. It’ll actually know where you listen to your podcasts on whether it’s your phone or your, or, or your computer. It’ll give you a quick link to leave your review to rate it, it, it’s really painless and I’d really, really appreciate it.

[01:03:41] Just like, Patrick, those little nuggets of information that you share can make a difference in one more person’s life. And guess what? It makes a difference in our lives. It knows that you are engaged and appreciate us. So thank you Patrick, for bringing that up. That is, that is fabulous. I really appreciate that.

[01:04:01] So again, please subscribe. Please leave reviews, and until next time, live life on purpose and not by accident. And remember, it’s never too late to give a heck.

[01:04:13] Thank you for taking time outta your day and listening to Give a Heck if you find value. I’d appreciate you sharing with your friends and family so they too can learn how to live life on purpose, not by accident. So you do not miss the next episode. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please also post a review.

[01:04:33] I look forward to reading your comments. This has been Dwight Heck. If you want to check out other podcast episodes or today’s show notes, please check out my website. Give a heck.com, and until next time together, let us all strive to give a heck.