Rewriting Your Story After Suicide Loss One Pedal at a Time with Thomas Brown
Have you ever considered how a life-altering event can spark a journey of self-discovery and healing? In this powerful episode, I sit down with Thomas Brown, who shares his inspiring story of turning personal tragedy into a mission of hope and awareness.
After losing his brother to suicide in 2001, Thomas embarked on a transformative cross-country bicycle tour, covering 7,000 miles to raise awareness about suicide prevention and the healing power of art. His journey from grief to purpose offers valuable insights for anyone grappling with loss or seeking personal growth.
Key Takeaways:
- The importance of self-awareness in navigating life’s challenges
- How personal tragedy can become a catalyst for positive change
- The healing power of creative expression and community engagement
- Strategies for overcoming codependency and toxic relationships
A Journey of Self-Discovery
Thomas candidly discusses his struggles with codependency and how it affected his personal growth. He shares how breaking free from limiting beliefs and toxic relationships was crucial to finding his true path.
The Power of Awareness
- Self-awareness
- Spatial awareness
- Social awareness
Learn how cultivating these forms of awareness can lead to greater empathy, both for yourself and others.
Challenging the Status Quo
Thomas’s cross-country bicycle tour wasn’t just about raising awareness – it was a profound journey of self-discovery. He shares the highs and lows of this epic adventure, offering insights into perseverance and personal growth.
This conversation is packed with wisdom for anyone seeking to understand themselves better and make a positive impact on the world. Whether you’re dealing with loss, searching for purpose, or simply looking to expand your awareness, you’ll find valuable guidance in Thomas’s journey.
Don’t miss this opportunity to gain a new perspective on life’s challenges and the power of turning pain into purpose. Tune in now and start giving a heck about your personal growth and the impact you can have on others!
Connect with Thomas Brown:
Website: http://www.risephoenix.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/risephoenix2012/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_rise_philosophy/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rise_phx?_t=8nr9tf3EF8I&_r=1
Connect with Dwight Heck:
Website: https://giveaheck.com (Free Book Offer)
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/give.a.heck
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dwight.heck
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Giveaheck
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@giveaheck
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwight-raymond-heck-65a90150/
TikTok:https://www.tiktok.com/@giveaheck
X: https://x.com/give_a_heck
Chapter Summary(Full Unedited Transcript at bottom)
00:00:00
Introduction to Thomas Brown and His Journey
Thomas Brown shares his personal story of losing his brother to suicide and embarking on a cross-country bicycle tour for suicide awareness. The conversation explores themes of grief, mental health, and the healing power of art.
00:01:41
Societal Attitudes Towards Suicide and Emotional Expression
Discussion on the stigma surrounding suicide, changing attitudes towards men expressing emotions, and the historical context of suicide in religion and society. The importance of empathy and understanding in addressing mental health issues is emphasized.
00:09:08
Thomas’s Origin Story and Codependency Issues
Thomas reflects on his childhood and early adulthood, revealing how codependency shaped his life choices and relationships. He discusses the challenges of breaking free from toxic patterns and discovering self-worth.
00:14:50
The Impact of Associations and Self-Awareness
Thomas and Dwight discuss the influence of personal relationships on growth and self-awareness. They explore the importance of surrounding oneself with supportive people and the challenges of breaking free from toxic relationships.
00:24:40
Frame of Reference and Understanding Suicide
The concept of “frame of reference” is introduced, highlighting how personal experiences shape our understanding of issues like suicide. Thomas shares insights into his brother’s struggles and the difficulty of recognizing warning signs without prior experience.
00:38:38
The Cross-Country Bicycle Tour for Suicide Awareness
Thomas recounts his 7,000-mile bicycle journey across the United States, discussing the physical and emotional challenges faced during the trip. He emphasizes the importance of self-discovery and breaking away from familiar environments.
01:14:38
Writing “2012 A Bicycle Odyssey” and Personal Growth
Thomas discusses the process of writing his book about the bicycle journey, describing it as facing a dragon. He shares how the experience helped him overcome past insecurities about writing and reignited his passion for storytelling.
01:19:52
Final Message: Know Thyself
The conversation concludes with Thomas emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and understanding oneself. The discussion touches on the value of personal growth, overcoming challenges, and the power of knowing oneself in navigating life’s difficulties.
Full Unedited Transcript
[00:00:00 – 00:01:24]
Welcome to Give A Heck. On today’s show, I welcome Thomas Brown. Thomas lost his brother to suicide in 2001, and after a decade of grief, uncertainty and confusion, he decided he needed to change. In 2012, along with a friend who had also lost a brother to suicide, they set out on a cross country bicycle tour for suicide awareness and the healing power of art. They started on the northern edge of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and ended up in Wapigonur Falls, New York, at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, the art retreat center of the artists Alex and Alison Gray. Since Thomas’s return, he has spent three years as a group facilitator for a local mental health facility, helping others who have lost loved ones to soothe suicide. In 2015, Thomas launched a podcast called Inner Monologue, a conversational interview show where others shared their journeys of trials and tribulations. Thomas recently published a book, 2012 A Bicycle Odyssey, which tells the tale of his cross country adventure. I’d like to welcome you to the show, Thomas. Thanks so much for agreeing to come on and share with us some of your life journey.
[00:01:26 – 00:01:41]
Thank you very much, Dwight. I’m, I’m happy to be here. Just letting everybody know I’m coming off of a, of a pretty rough flu and I’m here, I’m here. I’m going to do my best to, to tell my tale.
[00:01:41 – 00:02:24]
Yeah. And for Those watching on YouTube, you get to see some beautiful Christmas lights, colorful lights in the background. For those in audio, you’re just, we’re just, you’re just going to have to picture it in your mind’s eye. But this will be a fantastic show. I look forward to communicating on really what I feel is a sensitive subject for most, that people avoid communicating. And I, I don’t know, we’ll get into this and you’ll get your opinion about it, but I find even the memories of people that have committed suicide, they get left behind. And what I mean by that, people don’t tend to talk about it. So then the person isn’t communicated about and they’re defined by that one action. Right. You hear from how many people in.
[00:02:24 – 00:03:44]
Life, Thomas, that’s definitely, that’s, that’s definitely been the case. A lot of people that we’ve heard that same story, you know, that same type of story. I, I do think that there is a little bit more of a shift in, in conversation. At least there was right after the bike ride in 2012. There’s been kind of like a, a, a bit of, of, of a push Back, you know, trying to get men especially to talk about their feelings and to express their emotions. Men have no problem expressing rage, frustration or joy when, when their sports team wins something. And, and what they don’t realize is that’s an emotion. And, and the, the spectrum of emotion is vast and wide. And so you should probably allow yourself to express other types of emotions. And I think that there’s been kind of like an acceptance of men being a little bit more vulnerable. But with that there’s always like the pushback. You have the manosphere types of, of of online influencers that talk, you know, the, the, the Tates of the world.
[00:03:45 – 00:03:46]
Yeah, men.
[00:03:46 – 00:03:50]
Men are this and men are that. But I think that or you have.
[00:03:50 – 00:04:21]
The zealots on the other side that are two. They’re the organized religions that frown upon it. And you know, I’m a Catholic Christian and you know, our faith frowns upon it. And in the Old Testament they talk about the fact that somebody that commits suicide isn’t going to heaven. Right? Yeah, well, there’s actually that’s, that’s man that talks about that. If you believe in, in God like I do and are ever forgiving God. I don’t believe any of the people in my life that have committed suicide weren’t embraced and forgiven. I just don’t believe.
[00:04:21 – 00:05:18]
That was also kind of a. That idea, that idea of, of polit, of. Of. Of eternal damnation for the taking of one’s life was more of a, A scheme between church and state back in. I think so the medieval time. It’s, it’s. It’s. It was thing. It was total. It was totally to control the, the serfs and the peasants and to. Because like when life is hard and they’re like, I just want to check out. They had to make people afraid of doing that. So they would actually. They would, they would, they would. They created the stigma by saying like, you’re not, not only. You’re not allowed to be buried on, on church grounds. You’re not even allowed to be buried within the town area. So your bo. You would be buried way outside of town and it would put a stigma on your family. So it was more of like it.
[00:05:18 – 00:06:00]
Even put stigma on relationships. So Thomas, because I had, I’ve had people that were always kind of standoffish to me. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience because they had had somebody that committed suicide. I dated a woman one time that that happened and she for the longest time didn’t want to even go out on A date with me or get in a relationship because her dad had committed suicide and I knew her dad prior and I looked at her and I said one day and I said what’s, what’s holding you back? Well and she finally told me and I says I would never judge you. Well, you’re Catholic. So what? There’s different Catholics, there’s different people in how they look at organized religion. I treat it like a buffet. I don’t believe in that. Right.
[00:06:01 – 00:06:21]
Yeah. But it’s, it’s definitely like you know it that, that’s understandable because I, I talk to a lot of, of non Christians that don’t. I’m not Christian either, but I have a lot of experience in, in activism, working with, side by side with ministers and, and pastors.
[00:06:22 – 00:06:23]
Oh that’s great.
[00:06:23 – 00:06:57]
And so I have that understanding that there is more of a variety but most people who aren’t, who are outside of the church don’t have any type of like relationship with people doing that type of work in the church. So they just look at it all is like overbearing self righteous means to control. So that I kind of understand you have to be somewhat adjacent to the good people within the church to understand that it’s not all one size fits all.
[00:06:57 – 00:07:50]
Exactly. You know, we got to stop putting on different lenses and how we look and view the world and, and judgment. Judgment for me is there’s only one, one, one entity that could ever judge us. And it’s not me judging Thomas or somebody else for what’s gone on in their life or even looking back poorly upon the person that’s committed suicide. Right. It’s just, it’s just really we have a world that is lost. The ability to have empathy and practice the practice of support and understanding. And if you don’t agree, still understanding and still or at least attempting to be kind. Right. And that’s the biggest thing I’ve seen in the world of judgment in regards to not even just suicide. Lots of things.
[00:07:50 – 00:07:51]
Right.
[00:07:51 – 00:09:08]
Somebody has an affair, all of a sudden they’re become pride in their family. They had, they had that weak moment right. Now if they did it for years, that ain’t a weak moment. But you know, at the end of the day I look forward to our conversation. We’re going to get going because the listeners are probably going, Dwight, you always start out with the origin, but sometimes lately I don’t. I just have a thought and, and you help me get through that. I appreciate it. So Thomas, one of the things I like focusing on is A person’s origin story because it helps the people that are listening or watching on YouTube to know like and trust Thomas that much quicker because they now maybe can relate to something you comment on or, you know, just have that feeling. He gets it. I want to listen to this more. This is going to help me. So if you could do me a favor. From your earliest recollections, it doesn’t have to be just from school onward. It can be your school years that something happened that triggered you, that you realized maybe at the moment talking to me about it, or you realized years ago that this thing or things that happened in your childhood affected your adulthood. So could you do me a favor, Thomas, and share your origin from your childhood to your adulthood to where you’re currently at?
[00:09:08 – 00:09:23]
Okay, that. Thank you for narrowing it down. Because origin story could mean so much depending on like if you’re talking about the origin of this story about the loss of my brother or the origin story of me that, you know, I wasn’t even aware of until I was in my 30s.
[00:09:24 – 00:09:29]
That’s what I want to hear. But the stuff that you weren’t aware of until you got your, you know.
[00:09:29 – 00:09:30]
Until I got into therapy.
[00:09:30 – 00:09:40]
Well, we’ll still talk, we’ll still talk about, hey, I’ve been in therapy. Whatever. It’s, it’s like anybody, everybody watching or listening, that’s against, against that. Then you’re on the wrong show.
[00:09:40 – 00:09:52]
No, I, I’m totally about therapy. Like if you take your car in to get like a tune up every once in a while, why wouldn’t you take in your mind, you know, you just like, you want to have the right mechanic for, for both jobs.
[00:09:53 – 00:10:05]
You know what, that’s, that’s great. Like, you know, anyway, vulnerability is important. So. Yeah, share, share that. We’re going to get into the origin of your bike stuff too. Anyway, throughout the questions, right, so, so.
[00:10:05 – 00:13:49]
My, my origin story, the things like I, I can’t really. I didn’t suffer great trauma. You know, I never had to want for anything. We were like a very middle of the road, middle class family. My mom, my dad, my brother and I, you know, I had a roof over my head, clothing on my back, food on the table. They, they supported me emotionally and all that. But the one thing that I think I really got from my family, for my parents in general was that they’re extremely codependent people. And I didn’t, I didn’t, you know, to me that was just normal. That was just, that was with like, it’s like Just growing up, that’s just people that like, really love each other. I, it just became way too much of a security blanket for me that I wasn’t even aware of. Even when my brother died. I wouldn’t say that his suicide drove me over the edge or anything. I think because of my, my, my codependency issues that I developed in childhood, that when I graduated from high school, I, I always had these dreams and aspirations of things that I wanted to do, but I was terrified of the idea of going out and doing them away from the people that I knew and I was comfortable with. So not giving. You know, when you go out on an adventure, whether it’s to college or, you know, any type of school, or you move or something, you’re gonna find your community when you’re on this new adventure. And I wouldn’t even give myself that, that promise. I was just too afraid to step out and, and do the things that I always wanted to do. And so because of that codependency, that codependent nature, I stuck around and hung out with people that didn’t really have big aspirations or big dreams. They just wanted to, to live like the entertainment lifestyle of First World is like, you just grow up, maybe you get married, you have some kids, you watch television, you go to sporting events, you go to movies, and you, you know, have some cocktails on Friday and Saturday night, and that’s your life. And I didn’t want that life. I’ve never, I’ve never wanted that life. But I was too afraid to go out and, and, and pursue any of the other things. And because of that, like, I hung out a little bit too long. It stunted my emotional growth, it stunted my mental growth. And you know, I, I even the relation, the intimate relationships that I did find myself in were usually extremely toxic. So it took a, it took a long time for me to, for me to discover my own self worth. It took a long time before I even discovered that I was extremely codependent. You know, I had some peaks and in between the time that my brother died and the time that I went on this bike ride where I was improving. But like, there would always be those valleys that I would fall and tumble down into. So it was a, it was a very. I’m a very slow learner. And if you do ever, if anybody out there does purchase my book, you’ll see on the COVID there’s three symbols, and one of them is a turtle. And I’ll just say this, that I have a lot of turtle Energy, which means it takes me a while to get to go into where I want to go.
[00:13:50 – 00:14:50]
That’s an interesting take. And you mentioned, you know, going down and up the valley of despair is a reality. It happens for many of us where we have our good times and we have our times where we’re down the valley to despair. And you mentioned also associations, associations of who are in a relationships aren’t just those intimate relationships. It’s friends, it’s colleagues. And it’s easy to feel like it’s a warm blanket because they’re the same type of people as us, they communicate the same as us. Or maybe they’re at a level where we feel more comfortable because they’re more dominant in the relationship. And it, you know, they give us confidence, right? Not necessarily real confidence, but that fake confidence we get because, oh, they’re so sure of themselves when really behind the scenes, a lot of those people we hang out with that are toxic or negative are hurting little children hiding in a closet and haven’t dealt with their own stuff. Right? And then we get caught up in it.
[00:14:50 – 00:15:21]
You, you actually just nailed it. It was like I would have. I would attach myself to people who expressed a quality of like being completely sure of the world, you know, and they were, they always were the most frightened of it. It was fun for a while. I lingered much longer than, than I really needed to. So. And I don’t want to like, sit here and say that they were toxic people or that I was.
[00:15:21 – 00:15:22]
We all play a role.
[00:15:22 – 00:15:26]
But we all play a role, though, together. We just didn’t. We weren’t a good mixture.
[00:15:27 – 00:16:52]
We all play a role, whether it’s 90, 10 and like I get. I spend a lot of time life coaching my finance clients before we ever talk about money, insurance, anything, just to help over there. What I call life monsters, right? And we all have our. Yeah, whatever. Well, people will say, oh, this, I had this happen with my parents or my. Their divorce, for example. They did all this and this and that, and I’ll try real, real, obviously calmly to get through depending on where they are at with their energy level to, to make them admit that they always played a role, even that role of not leaving soon enough or the role of allowing their children to put up with more stuff if there’s kids involved because they stayed with a toxic person. And it happens with men and women, right? And taking that onus and that responsibility can be really tough for, for people to admit that they did play a part, whether it was 10% or just thought by not making a decision. And maybe they didn’t make the decision because they’re scarred from their own learned behavior from childhood. Right. It’s. It becomes a vicious circle, like a hamster wheel where people are just not sure how to get off. And good for you, though, for pivoting and changing. That must have been a difficult point in your life just to have that realization and then processing it and moving forward on that road.
[00:16:53 – 00:17:36]
Yeah, it was. It was. It was extremely difficult. I’ve always been, like, a type of. I’ve always been an emotional person. I’ve never had any problems expressing myself emotionally. I never had problems crying. And the guys that I was. Was hanging out with, they didn’t have any problem with me being that type of person, but they definitely didn’t have the. The tools necessary that I needed to process my emotions. You know, they were just friends. Your friends. Shouldn’t. Your boys need to. It’s cool to, like, have, like, friends that will be there for you, but they’re not your therapists, you know, do you think.
[00:17:36 – 00:17:57]
You feed. You think with friends that were similar? That way you’re both stuck, right? You’ve stopped climbing. You’re camped in your mindset, and you’re just. Like you said, you. You were emotional, you could cry, you could do all this stuff, and they were fine with that. Do you think that we. People that get caught needs what I call a click? They’re feeding off that they’re feeding off.
[00:17:57 – 00:18:05]
Definitely. Definitely. Like, we. You know, you kind of, like, you enable each other not to be it.
[00:18:05 – 00:18:05]
You.
[00:18:05 – 00:19:46]
You’re able to in. In those moments of vulnerability, express the reasons why it’s okay that you feel that way and that as long as you have this community, everything will be all right. But there’s no, like, need or. Or belief or desire or will to, like, push yourselves beyond that. And that’s what it was like. I had this one particular friend. I considered him like my. My hetero life friend. And, you know, I was a big. We were both into movies and films, and we’d go to movies all the time and watch movies all the time. And there we. There’s a lot of talk of us, like, writing stuff together and trying to get things made and. And becoming our own, you know, filmmakers. And I just could never get him motivated to do anything. I’d be like, okay, we’re this. We’re not watching a movie tonight. We’re not. You know, what we should have done is left the house. I. I should have got him out of the house. But every single time we had a plan to do something like that, it just would never happen. It would never happen. And I think that was one of the things that I always have to be doing something. There’s like, There’s a. There’s a drive in me to be part of something that’s bigger than me. And ever since I stepped away from that relationship, I’ve always found myself doing something. Being part of. Of. Of a project that’s. That’s bigger than myself. Like some type of, like, creative in Denver or doing something like the bike.
[00:19:46 – 00:19:49]
Ride helps you stretch outside of your comfort zone.
[00:19:50 – 00:20:42]
Yeah. Yeah, it definitely does. Definitely did. So that was just like, one thing that, like, I. It. The reason why I had to step away and I had to, like, break through was just because it got to the point where if I didn’t like being. Being a creative person and working on projects. Creative projects is like air or food or water to me. If I don’t do one of those three, I will eventually die. And now, like, creativity is like one of those four. It’s one of those three elements now. It’s. It’s the fourth element. If I don’t do that, I will literally wither away and die. Like, I don’t see any purpose for my existence if I can’t create something, even if it’s just for the audience of myself.
[00:20:43 – 00:21:31]
Well, you’re. You’re creating your. You have your why and you have goals. And what you just said perlays to lots of people in this planet. Because unfortunately, people don’t have goals. They’re not aspiring for stuff. Like you’re aspiring and you’re creative person, and you’re saying, well, if I don’t have that, really, what’s the point? And there’s a lot of people that don’t have even that one focal thing that you have. They’re just looking at. They can’t even see the horizon. All they’re seeing is the ground. They just don’t see themselves moving forward because of their circumstances. And that can lead up to. Right addictions. It can lead up to family violence. It can lead up to crime. And unfortunately, it can lead up to suicide.
[00:21:31 – 00:21:41]
Yeah. I mean, another thing too is I think that just like in our two societies, I can’t really speak for Canada. I’ve been to Vancouver once.
[00:21:43 – 00:21:45]
We’re pretty much the same brother.
[00:21:45 – 00:21:58]
Yeah, Yeah, I know. I don’t. I don’t like to, but I try not to speak for other people. But if you. You’ve traveled to the US More than I’ve traveled to Canada, so I guess you could say it, but I just think that there’s a profound lack of self awareness in our society.
[00:21:58 – 00:22:01]
Oh definitely. That’s not just North America.
[00:22:02 – 00:22:02]
Yeah.
[00:22:02 – 00:22:04]
Talking the world, man.
[00:22:04 – 00:22:04]
I know.
[00:22:05 – 00:22:23]
If people reflected more, if they had the right mindset of people they hung out with, like, like minded people on the climb. If we did so there’s so many things we could have our conversation just on that people. I mean self awareness and reflection doesn’t exist in the world. It’s too. It’s like a phenomenon.
[00:22:23 – 00:22:31]
As our conversation will persist, you will understand that that’s my shtick. Like self awareness is. Awareness is the only game in town.
[00:22:31 – 00:22:36]
And when, when do you practice it though? And how do you practice it? There’s even ways for that.
[00:22:37 – 00:22:37]
Yeah.
[00:22:37 – 00:22:49]
I’m just saying, I mean there’s. There’s triggers that you can train your mind to be alert to being self aware that you’re getting into that rabbit hole for an example. Right. I teach.
[00:22:49 – 00:22:49]
I mean but that.
[00:22:49 – 00:22:52]
And I practice it myself and, and.
[00:22:52 – 00:23:05]
That’S the thing though too that you know, the fact that self awareness isn’t something. I used to think it was nefarious back in my early 20s when I used to wear the tin. Tin foil hat.
[00:23:07 – 00:23:08]
Yeah.
[00:23:08 – 00:23:23]
But I think it’s just more of like ignorance and negligence. The reason why we don’t have a system in place to teach our young people how to cultivate awareness and falls.
[00:23:23 – 00:23:35]
Back in the school system. Falls back in the school system because those listening or watching he said a word. That is really profound. Ignorance, ignorance and stupidity are two different things.
[00:23:35 – 00:23:44]
Yeah, well, I. I just think it’s more. It’s more negligence and ignorance than it is a nefarious action by the state as to why we are not self aware. Yeah.
[00:23:44 – 00:23:57]
Well, that school system doesn’t teach personal development. They don’t teach how to. If they don’t teach you about your feelings, especially they have a sex ed class or what they call calm or whatever. Right.
[00:23:57 – 00:23:57]
In.
[00:23:57 – 00:24:39]
In our country. And really at the end of the day it’s not done in a comfortable way. It really doesn’t dig deep enough into like here’s a definition of what this is. How does that make you feel? Hey, how should we. Let’s talk about this. And they focus more on calculus and different things that really most people never use in their life or physics. Right. Stuff like that. Yes. We should have a general knowledge of math and the sciences. But I think if we focus as a society more on Our six inches between our ears, man, we’d be so solid strong. We’d have more self awareness realization. We’d have steps in place to help correct those challenges.
[00:24:40 – 00:24:47]
Yeah, and you’d probably have a lot more people that would even eventually, you know, foster a greater understanding of math and science.
[00:24:48 – 00:25:51]
You’re right. Creativity would be unleashed and they’re confident. Confidence breeds success. It really does. It can be a slow rise to success. And it doesn’t mean people. Success doesn’t always mean money either. Success can be so many different things. Like you said, some people want, you know, just. Just to be in, in their own house and enjoy their house and have that realization we were talking about before we hit record. And you know, satisfaction’s the definition of it is different for every human being. Just like thumbprint. Right. Our fingerprint part of me is different. We’re all unique creatures and we have similarities and commonalities that we can learn to elevate and make our lives more confident. And if you’re a thousandaire or a millionaire or a billionaire, we all have the same six inches. We all have challenges. And hanging out and associating and getting good information to change our lives and to realize that we’re on the wrong path is a powerful thing. But some people never get to that point.
[00:25:51 – 00:25:53]
Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:54 – 00:25:54]
Many of us.
[00:25:54 – 00:26:09]
Wild. It’s wild. It’s. It’s very wild. But again, not to be like a conspiracy theorist or anything like that. I think it is more like negligence and, and ignorance than it is like a nefarious act to control it.
[00:26:09 – 00:27:38]
Yeah, well, exactly. I don’t think it’s intentionally done this way, but it’s been pattern taught for. Well, since, let’s say that 1940s and 50s when the education system really got into it. Like I like. I love Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill. If you’ve never read that book or listen to it, I listened to it on audible and he talks. It was written in the 30s and he talks about the education system, the health care system, the political system. And he interviews the devil if you listen to the audible. And the reason I bring this up is I’ve had lots of people that have done it now. And it’s amazing the messages or the responses I get from people. Napoleon Hill talks about the school system and those same problems are still around. And that book was written in the late 30s. Political problems. Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill. It was brought out in about 2000, I want to say 2011, 12. They finally released the book, the Family and a lady by the name of Sharon Lecter, very famous lady. She ends up narrating in between the chapters to explain some of this stuff. But it is literally, if you listen to the audible, well worth the purchase. He interviews the devil about everything I talked about. Health care, school system, families. And they said the reason they didn’t release the book, he would have been shot. He would probably been killed. He would have gone, had to go into hiding if they would have released that book when it was written in the late 30s. So they shall.
[00:27:38 – 00:27:38]
Wow.
[00:27:39 – 00:27:52]
My point is though, as our school system, you say the state isn’t doing anything intentional, but they’re not doing anything to correct it. Even in a baby step way. That’s, you know.
[00:27:52 – 00:28:01]
You know, when you have, when you have adults that are. When you have adults that lack awareness teaching, how can they teach awareness to, to their children?
[00:28:02 – 00:28:06]
Thank you. Learn behavior. How can you teach what you don’t know?
[00:28:06 – 00:28:31]
I mean, and so I think self awareness is like any other skill set. Some people are born with a great amount of, of talent in that department and other people have to cultivate it. You know, I think it’s going to be a lot easier for some people to, to learn self awareness than it is for them to extend their vertical leap. You know what I mean?
[00:28:31 – 00:28:32]
So I do know it’s one of.
[00:28:32 – 00:29:02]
Those, it’s one of those like skills that’s it that I think is easier to learn than some of the others. Like not everybody can pick up a guitar and just, you know, like it doesn’t matter how much they practice. Like they’ll, they’re, they’re, they’re gonna have a hard time going from, from different fingers, from chord to chord, you know what I mean? But, and other people will pick it up and they don’t even know anything about it. They don’t even like music that much. And they just like their fingers would move.
[00:29:02 – 00:29:09]
You know, passion doesn’t always equal talent. Yeah, some people just have it right. They’re just.
[00:29:09 – 00:29:32]
But like self awareness is just still it’s something like there’s got to be a point where something just clicks. I can’t believe, I can’t allow myself to believe that there, that there’s people out there that, that could never become self aware, I hope. I mean, that’s just a different species of humanity than if, if, if there’s people that can’t do that.
[00:29:32 – 00:30:20]
Here’s the problem though, when I, I could say I refuse to believe, but in my 22 years of practice of what I do and how many families I’ve dealt with. Unfortunately you can have one person that, you’re right, they can change, but they’re surrounded in circumstances of family, a career they hate or a business that’s faulty and they just can’t get out of their own way. They’ve got that seed of greatness where they can become self aware. They show the potential of developing and changing. But that seed is, is, is in an area where it gets no rain, it gets no sunshine. Do you understand what I mean? It gets no care because everything around it is as dark and gloomy, if that makes sense. Yeah.
[00:30:21 – 00:30:29]
And I think that’s the final push with self awareness is where when you become aware now you need the will to do something to change it.
[00:30:29 – 00:30:30]
Yeah, great.
[00:30:32 – 00:31:26]
You need that final push. But I think the will comes from within, it doesn’t come from without. And family, job be damned. You know, I, I, I, I didn’t talk to my brother for, for four months. We, we, my, actually my brother and I didn’t talk for about almost like an entire year. Like I wouldn’t do family functions with him. It wasn’t until like the last four months of his life that we started to like build a bridge because I didn’t, I mean I still wasn’t like a very aware person at that time either, but I just knew that like I didn’t want a bully mentality in my life. The way that he expressed, I at least knew that much about myself is that like if I don’t have to be around you and you’re being, you’re being a jerk to me, I’m not going to be around you.
[00:31:26 – 00:32:28]
That’s fantastic though that you bring that up and that vulnerability because at the end of the day, I coach people on how do you avoid people that aren’t in your wheelhouse of where you’re growing and that they, you’re right, it is have to be with us and that darkness that’s around us that’s, that’s possibly squashing us growing. We have to make a conscious decision. Do we want that light inside of us to shine? Do we want to continue to grow and be different? Or are we going to stay in the shadow, never growing overshadowed, no sun, no rain. Are we just going to push forward and communicate with other people and say, you know what, this is not healthy for me emotionally and mentally. I’m trying to change myself and my brother, my sister, my aunt, uncle, mom, dad, friends are slowing me down. So you’re right, it has to be within, inside of us. It has to be. And then we have to be strong enough to fight past it.
[00:32:29 – 00:34:34]
I mean, if you really want to get down to the heart of like, self awareness, I have like a list of things that like, who am I outside of? You know, because I always just say, like, you have to know where the lines between all of your influences are between who you are and your influences. And that used to confuse people. So I’m just like, all right, I’m gonna like, what are your influences? State is an influence. Lineage is a, is an influence. Religious upbringing is an influence. Your sexual identity, your gender, your, your, Your ability, your physical ability within your body is an influence. Your race is an influence. Like, all of those things are the influence. So who am I outside of all that stuff? You know, I can’t. The only thing I can, like this, this avatar of whiteness is a filter in which the world sees me through. It’s just one of the filters in which the world sees me to. Through. And if I’m aware of that, I also be. Can. Can be empowered to be like, well, then I’m only going to, I’m not going to respond into the way in which the world sees me. I’ll take it under advisement. It’ll be part of my, my, my zone of awareness. But like, I have to re. I have to be who I am and not the way the world interprets me. And for some people it’s, it’s because, like you said, because of their circumstances, it’s going to be a little bit harder. So I think it’s a fair to keep in mind too that when I do bring stuff up about like awareness is that you have to be starting a. Somewhat of a state of privilege to even be able to start living in that mindset, you know, because depend. Because people are going to see me differently than they’re going to see my, my buddy dj, who’s black, just be. Just, just on the very. Based on our pigmentation.
[00:34:34 – 00:34:37]
That one. Yeah, yeah, that one filter.
[00:34:38 – 00:34:55]
And because I’ve never had to live an existence of knowing how the world looks at you that way, that’s one layer less of, of confrontation that I have to deal with than what D.J. would have to. So.
[00:34:55 – 00:34:59]
But like his life, his life circumstances are different than yours.
[00:34:59 – 00:35:21]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he still has that opportunity to understand that he, that he know, at least as long as he knows that he is different from all those other influences that he, that he’s connected to. From state to lineage. I always felt like family as much as I love them. That was probably like my first layer of. Of awareness that I kind of broke through. Is that.
[00:35:21 – 00:35:23]
Me too. Me too.
[00:35:23 – 00:35:28]
Family. Family can be just as much of an anchor as any other. Oh my gosh.
[00:35:28 – 00:36:24]
It’s actually the first anchor in our lives if we’re honest. It’s not our. It’s not our childhood. It’s not our. It’s not our childhood friend friends. It’s our family. It’s nurture and coddle can be overdone from one parent and the other parent can be too rough. And sometimes that ying and yang and you’ll develop into a. You’ll blossom and. And you’ll be okay pretty good. You got to start being that person that’s self aware that that privilege you mentioned. Right. And then. But sometimes that same kid having that coddling and that other yang right to where it’s their one parents too tough on them. That’s what they adopt. They don’t adopt a. A portion of each and then develop themselves. They develop just one side of the equation. Either they’re too soft or too hard. There’s no moderation, if that makes sense. In my.
[00:36:24 – 00:37:07]
Why I. I’ve growing up in the Southwest, like I had a lot of like Hispanic friends, Latin friends, and for some reason I also had a lot of experience with Italians as well. And there’s a lot of similarity. I don’t know if it’s the Catholicism, but there is a similarity in how those two cultures view family. And my partner Sharon, she’s Italian and she like I see that. That anchor into family and, and how. How those hooks are just like in deep man. And I just don’t have.
[00:37:07 – 00:37:24]
They live through guilt. They live family guilt. And I don’t want people to think I love my family. But I had to understand the grip that I allowed we always have to take on us. I allowed them to have that grip on me as I was growing up.
[00:37:24 – 00:37:24]
Yeah.
[00:37:24 – 00:38:38]
And then as I shed those claws or those anchors. I still have a relationship, but now it’s controlled on me what’s best for me so that I can be the ultimate version. What I need to be for my kids and my grandkids, my clients, my friends and I, my, my filter, my vision, my. My glasses. I’m looking at them going, oh, that’s nice. Whereas maybe prior, what they’d say would be that I feel that claw that anchor like you said, just dig in harder. And then I’d have that guilt. For some people in my life, they call it Christian guilt, Catholic guilt. Quit Labeling things. It’s just the fact that I allowed it. I allowed it. Now I’m breaking free and the shackles are going away. And once in a while, those shackles might temporarily come back. People are listening, watching. But I’ve become what we talked about, we’ve been talking about self aware to what’s going on in my life. And I can pivot. Maybe it’s right away, maybe it’s two hours later, maybe it’s the next day, but I still come to that realization that of self awareness, that, wow, I just let that happen. That used to happen 10 years ago, 15 years ago. So you’re human, you’re not going to be perfect, but you’re always climbing to get to be the best version.
[00:38:38 – 00:38:40]
Totally, totally.
[00:38:40 – 00:39:28]
Right? So one of the, one of the things I wanted to, unless you want to touch on something else, is you brought up about the four months that you communicated with your brother prior to that unfortunate circumstance that happened with him. Committed suicides. When you look back on it, like you mentioned that, the signs of him being toxic and you didn’t want to be around that and you just didn’t communicate for a year until that four months. Were there signs, blatant signs that, that caught you and your family off guard in regards to him committing suicide? Or was there, was there things that you could see going on or here, or did you hear from your family that they talk about your brother because you weren’t communicating? Were there things that you can share with people that they maybe can help them to be more self aware? Or is it impossible?
[00:39:28 – 00:40:12]
Yes and no. You know, Hindsight is always 2020. The thing about my brother, the toxicity, I think is something we need to talk about because it will, it will give you a better understanding of the story in which I was in. My brother, my brother ruled my family. Oh, he was the, he was the golden boy and my parents relinquished all power to him. He was, he. And, and I didn’t. And when I was in, when I was in high school, it wasn’t really that big of a deal. I played basketball and I was like, I was kind of like more of a nerd that was just good at basketball, as you could see, like in the background. Like, I got my Empire Strikes Back and I got some like, figures back there.
[00:40:15 – 00:40:19]
That’s a thumbs up for those listening for me, I like that too.
[00:40:20 – 00:42:00]
But. So my brother’s heart was broken when he went away for a semester in college and he got engaged and then like it didn’t work out and, and he Came home and he was just like, I’m never going to let a woman do that, make me feel that way ever again. So he became a womanizer. And after I got out of high school, I, I got into the weed. I really liked cannabis. And, and, and he didn’t, he, he didn’t like that. He didn’t like, he didn’t agree of my choice of, like, I’m gonna start being like a stoner. He didn’t like that. He eventually started dating a girl that I was friends with. And then he was still. And then he was. Continued to date this other woman who was my supervisor. And we all worked for, like, the same organization. Not my friend, but like, my brother, my supervisor and I all worked for the same organization. And my brother was like, you’re going to lie for me? And I’m like, no, I’m not. Just don’t tell me what’s happening. I don’t want to be a part of your lies. And he’s all. And he would try to, like, exert his power and influence over me because he didn’t like that I was smoking weed and also didn’t like that I wouldn’t lie for him. And so that’s why him and I stopped talking. I’m like, I’m not going to like, dude, like, you’re manipulative. I’m going to move into this house where these two DJs are. DJs at Exotic Strip clubs, where there’s a lot of drugs happening there, because I feel safer there than being around you.
[00:42:00 – 00:42:01]
Wow.
[00:42:03 – 00:43:04]
And then the two women, after a long after like five plus years, got wise, you know, that he was able to use their denial against them. They got wise, they left him. And, you know, in order to sell a lie, you kind of have to believe the lie. And my brother was telling a lie for so long that that crushed him, that devastated him. The illusion that he had created of his invulnerability had been taken away. And he was so, so, like, sad and so depressed and was so embarrassed to say that he was sad and, and depressed that the only thing that he thought in his mind that people would accept for his behavior is if he was sick. So he told another lie. And he said that he was. That he had cancer.
[00:43:05 – 00:43:06]
Oh, my gosh, no.
[00:43:06 – 00:43:26]
And he didn’t have any proof of this. Wouldn’t let anybody go to the doctor’s appointments with him. Who knows where he even went when he said he was going to the doctor. Who knows what lie he was telling to who? And that was. That was when I came back into the orbit and started, like, hanging out with him again and started talking to him again.
[00:43:26 – 00:43:29]
So it was because of the circumstance of potential cancer.
[00:43:30 – 00:44:10]
Yeah. I didn’t really believe it. I didn’t really believe it, but I was still going to be there for my brother. You know what I mean? If this was, like, you know, I was still dealing with, like, my own inadequacies and codependencies, but I knew that my brother was hurting, and I just wanted to be around if he ever needed. And so we communicated. We hung out a lot more than we did for about four months. And it was from, like, April 2001, when he said he was sick, to August 2001, in which he took his own life.
[00:44:10 – 00:44:22]
Wow, that’s to. To. Oh, I can’t even. We could sit here and speculate what he was thinking, but we wouldn’t know. Or at least I for sure wouldn’t know. It would be.
[00:44:22 – 00:44:39]
I mean, the idea of, like, I can’t. The, like, I. I can’t. I can’t own up to the fact that I’ve lost all this weight is because of heartache. But if it’s because I’m physically sick, people might accept that.
[00:44:40 – 00:45:03]
Oh, yeah. So we put up a shield, A. A facade, Right. To present what we want people to believe and experience with our lives. Right. So, you know, like you said, he went from heartache to all of a sudden saying he had cancer. So he was always in a manipulative mode. Seemed.
[00:45:03 – 00:45:04]
Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:04 – 00:45:10]
He. He’s a master manipulator, probably. Was he narcissistic, your brother?
[00:45:10 – 00:45:54]
Yeah, yeah, he. He had a good. Really good singing voice. That’s what he went to school for, and he would use that to woo women. I gotta admit, even though I didn’t like it, it was impressive to watch, you know what I mean? Like, to be an audience member sometimes and watch him weave the web. You’re like, damn, that’s impressive. Like, if you had any type of good nature to you, like, true, legitimate good nature, you could be. You. He could have been a politician. You know what I mean? Like. Like, if he. If he had any, like, will or desire to, like, be beyond the entertainment lifestyle of the. Of the. Of the peasants of our society, he could have totally been a politician.
[00:45:54 – 00:45:57]
He could have sold ice to Eskimos.
[00:45:57 – 00:46:02]
Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, he was.
[00:46:02 – 00:46:03]
I know lots of people like that.
[00:46:03 – 00:46:12]
It was. It was profound. But I just. I didn’t like it. It was also, like, gross at the same time, but I was just like, damn. D. Like it’s impressive.
[00:46:12 – 00:46:27]
Yeah, well, it definitely was the way he was wired. His personality was just meant to, you know, like he’s giving off pheromones all the time. Come on, come on, ladies. Come on. Friends accomplish and do.
[00:46:27 – 00:46:38]
Besides those two women, he always, he also had like other conquests while he was dating those two women, you know, so he, he was, he was a manslaught.
[00:46:39 – 00:47:15]
I know a lot of those unfortunately in my life and even, even, you know, relatives that are like that. So up to that four month period. So you’re back in his life and you know, he’s, he’s pretending or the reality is that he has cancer. You’re not sure. Was there any signs that you were aware of or because. Or was your life because your own circumstances. Were you unavailable just to see, because of the past experiences with him that he would commit suicide? Was there anything said or done?
[00:47:16 – 00:48:19]
I mean, he was just acting really, really weird. And I just think because there was. I had never experienced a suicide from anyone else in my entire life. All the people that I had been around that I had lost were just family members that were too old. I’d been to a ton of funerals. Grandparents, uncles died like, like great uncles. I never lost a friend that way. And so I just didn’t have a. You know, you, if, if something like that never happens to you, you’re never going to think that it’s going to, you know, I never think, I never think I’m going to be jumped, you know, at night or. Yeah, I never think I’m gonna be mugged. You know, I never think that like I’m gonna, my, I’m gonna die in a car accident. You never think that something could happen until it like happens to you. And now you have a frame of reference. I never had that frame of reference. So. To me, I love that.
[00:48:19 – 00:48:35]
I love that frame of reference. Because you had never experienced that. Those listening or watching rewind that part. If you never have the frame of reference, how are you going to know that somebody’s contemplating suicide? Yes, he’s acting strange and weird, but he’s done that before.
[00:48:35 – 00:49:16]
And yeah, he, you know, and you know, it’s also like the. We didn’t you. Even though I was very an emotional person and I would talk about my feelings, I was the outlier amongst my friends, amongst my family, amongst everybody else. I was the outlier that was like, like, I have feelings and I want to talk about them. You know what I mean? Like that was happening Everywhere else. Anywhere, anywhere else in my, in my world. But I mean, I, I get along great with women, you know, I do too.
[00:49:16 – 00:49:17]
More than men, to be honest.
[00:49:17 – 00:49:22]
Yeah. Any. And even back then that was, that was the case too. Like I just.
[00:49:22 – 00:49:24]
My whole life I’ve been like that.
[00:49:24 – 00:50:02]
Yeah. Yeah. So I just, it just, it’s one of those things where like, I didn’t have the frame of reference. People like to. Back in that, back in the day, didn’t like to talk about any. I mean still, people don’t like to talk about anything. But like I’m the type of person that doesn’t allow people to ignore stuff. Yeah. It was just a different time. My brother was the leader of the family. He was the dominant force of the family. He wasn’t gonna like relieve anything to you that he didn’t want to. He was very definitely. He was gonna let me take control of it, you know.
[00:50:02 – 00:50:16]
He was a very integrated person, very integral part of me. He’s very. Oh, wow. That had to have been energy drawing energy sucking for him to keep that facade going. Yeah. For all those years.
[00:50:17 – 00:50:17]
Exactly.
[00:50:18 – 00:50:28]
Two women along for five years, getting into it with family. Not, you know, not necessarily winning in his life, moving home, like, you know what I mean?
[00:50:28 – 00:50:29]
Yeah.
[00:50:29 – 00:51:07]
But I still go back to that man. That’s just ringing in my brain. Frame of reference. I’ve never thought of it that way. Right. How can you understand or see something if you don’t have a frame of reference? I had new people growing up that went. Committed suicide. I had one of my friends right out of high, shortly after high school, commit, a few years after commit suicide. I’ve had relatives commit suicide. But I still didn’t get it. Even if I had been. I had been around my friend, we had had an outing. We hadn’t talked to each other for a bit because he’s being a jerk. And then all of a sudden I get a phone call asking if I’d be part of the celebration at the church in my hometown.
[00:51:07 – 00:51:08]
Yeah.
[00:51:08 – 00:51:37]
That he had committed suicide. Do you know what I mean? And I was just like, you know What? I’m a 20 something year old kid, maybe 20, 21. And I just, I didn’t have the frame of reference. So thank you. It makes me feel better. I always wondered, why didn’t I catch stuff from this person? Why didn’t I feel that. Yes. Oh, we had this argument or we had this conversation or they reached out and I said, oh, I was busy. Maybe I was the reason. Maybe I could have done Something different, you know what I mean?
[00:51:37 – 00:51:48]
Yeah. And the water could have, should haves, don’t ever work for suicide trauma, you know, because that, all that is, is just, that’s just, that sets you on.
[00:51:48 – 00:51:57]
We’re having a pity downward spiral. We’re having a pity party. I’m just being honest. I. Right. Oh, if I, you know what I mean? Because you want to feel more miserable.
[00:51:57 – 00:52:02]
You just have to accept what is at that point and move forward.
[00:52:02 – 00:52:29]
Man, that is powerful. That’s going to stick with me forever, you know, And I’m going to use that with my own practice. Do you have a frame of reference? How could you know that your family member was going to do that? Or even how could you know that their relationship was terrible and that there was abuse in the home or that there is a divorce coming up or, you know what I mean? Or even that could be used for anything. Do you have a frame of reference? Quit beating yourself up. How could you know, right?
[00:52:29 – 00:52:30]
I mean, like I, I.
[00:52:30 – 00:52:38]
What an epiphany. In my 50s. I’ve never thought of it that way. As simple as it is, it is.
[00:52:39 – 00:55:01]
I caretake for my father and we’re putting a trust together. And my dad, you know, it’s a very matriarchal household that, that I grew up in outside of my brother. Like, my mom, like ran the household. My dad like gave her the money. He’s in charge of a few bills, but most of the other stuff he did, like the housework. And so when my mom died about a year and a half ago, I had to learn all that stuff. And so when I go in to like, my dad wants a trust put together because he doesn’t want it to be hard. He doesn’t want me to have to like, deal with anything. You know, I, anytime I take my dad to like any of his appointments, I start off by doing all the talking, you know, and the, and the guy is like, hey, wait a minute, I need you to shut up for a second. For legal reasons, to protect yourself and myself, you need to shut up right now. And then he went to my father. Is your son allowed to speak for you? And it’s just because I didn’t have a frame of reference of how that, how you do a trust. I’ve never had to do that before in my entire life, you know, so having a frame of reference is like, that’s like one of the layers of, of awareness. Like I always talk about, like, self awareness is one thing, but you have to like the idea of self awareness. Is to expand beyond yourself too. So, like, I’ve, like, broken awareness into, like, three pillars. They’re the three pillars that work for me. They could probably grow into other pillars as, like, I think about this more and I have more experience. But first layer, the first pillar is self awareness. The second pillar is spatial awareness, my environment and the people that I. That I interact with on a daily basis. And then after that, you have social awareness where you become aware of people who don’t look like you don’t have your life experience. And. And you trying to, like, cultivate compassion and empathy for. For. For things that. That. That are. No. That are so unfamiliar from you as. As can possibly be. But that also helps fold back to. The first pillar is that the more. More empathy and compassion I killed cultivate for myself, the more empathy and compassion I can cultivate for other people that don’t have my living experience.
[00:55:01 – 00:55:08]
Boom. And that’s so true. If we can’t have empathy for ourselves, how can we work for others? How can we.
[00:55:08 – 00:55:10]
Because that’s a frame of reference.
[00:55:10 – 00:55:10]
Yeah, you.
[00:55:10 – 00:55:26]
The compassion and. And empathy for yourself is a frame of reference. Having compassion and empathy is a frame of reference. If you don’t have that for yourself, you can’t have that for anybody else. And. And it kind of like, the more it expands for others, the more it expands for yourself and vice versa.
[00:55:27 – 00:55:50]
Yeah. Well, in frame of reference can be something that can be learned. Like a surgeon going out to do heart surgery initially, when he’s going through medical school, doesn’t have the frame of reference until he starts learning it. Now all of a sudden, he can do the surgery because you have a frame of reference from experiences and practicing and. And working on it. So he can be a heart surgeon, right?
[00:55:50 – 00:55:51]
Yeah.
[00:55:51 – 00:55:54]
Wouldn’t that kind of fit into that scheme of having that everything.
[00:55:55 – 00:55:58]
Yeah, everything is a frame of reference.
[00:55:58 – 00:56:00]
Right on. So I want. Oh. Gone.
[00:56:00 – 00:56:12]
Go ahead. I was just gonna say. And of course, like, with my frame of reference, you know, I’m a. I’m a turtle. My learning curve is always, like, wide and vast.
[00:56:12 – 00:56:15]
Man, you learn, though. Who cares if you’re a turtle?
[00:56:15 – 00:56:16]
Yeah.
[00:56:16 – 00:57:08]
I had a person on my podcast here a few months ago that he’s a coach and he educates people about where they are and these four main animals and then subcategories of these animals and what an amazing guy to interview. But it’s. It’s so true, right? We. At the end of the day, you can be a turtle. You could be a lion, you could be a Lynx, you could be a wolf. Whatever. At the end of the day, the thing that is. Makes me proud of you is that you’re aware. You’re Your self awareness. All these things you talk about, these different. Being socially aware and that you are aware because you can talk about it. You are on the climb. I don’t care if it’s a turtle. I’d wish that. I wish the whole world would start at being a turtle somewhere, right? Maybe. Maybe you’re that snail. Maybe you’re that snail. You’re not even a turtle yet, right?
[00:57:08 – 00:57:32]
I. I have people that try to, like, you know, hey, let me. Let’s race in this task. I’m like, no, absolutely not. Like, why? You’re afraid I’m gonna beat you? I was like, no, you will beat me because if I try to race you, I’m gonna go outside of, like, my comfort zone of how I do things and how I process things, and I’m going to mess it up, and then I’m going to lose twice as hard because then I got to go back again and redo it.
[00:57:32 – 00:57:44]
So boom, again. You listen to that. Coaches, listen to this, right? Quit pushing your people to be a rabbit when they’re a turtle.
[00:57:44 – 00:58:33]
And I’m a supervisor at. I work. This. This is my passion stuff. What we’re doing, my book that, my writing, my creativity. This is my passion stuff. I work. I’m a middle management at a library. I’m a supervisor. I got a team of seven, and to me, it’s, like, just as important as a super. Like, I don’t like the term supervisor. All right? I’d rather be a coach. You know what I mean? This is my team. Like, when we’re in the back room, that’s practice. When you’re out on the floor, that’s the game. All right? And. And. And for me, it’s like, it’s just as important to learn the. My. My new. The. My new hire and how they learn rather than me to force onto them how I need them to learn.
[00:58:33 – 00:58:34]
Good question.
[00:58:36 – 00:59:22]
Like, who? Of course, it all comes down to audience. Who is my audience as a supervisor? Part of my audience are the people that I supervise. So I need to. If. Don’t want to message. If you want to. If you want a message to get through to somebody, whether it’s the director of the library, whether it’s my supervisor, whether it’s, like, supervisors that I work with, whether it’s people underneath me, they are all my audience. When I’m communicating with them, I must know how they consume information. If I don’t, it doesn’t matter what I’m saying. I need to speak to them at the level in which they understand that’s a skill, though. And like. Yeah, yeah, I know it is.
[00:59:22 – 01:60:09]
No, but I’m, I’m congratulating you. You got us. That’s a skill, brother, to be able to. Because you’re doing that and finding out about that new hire. There has to be communication. There has to be. And it’s not just good questions. It’s also you being a student of human nature, watching body language, see how reactions happen with, with conversation and that. And you, in order to be, whether you like the term supervisor or not, in order to be a manager, supervisor, a boss, you need to be coach. Yes, coach. A mentor. Right, Coach mentors meet people at where they’re at and help them grow from there. And you’ll have the best follower, significant other, friend, worker, boss. You can work, it can work both ways, I think.
[01:60:09 – 01:60:18]
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one thing that a lot of people and I, I think the reason why it’s not there for a lot of people is because there’s a lack of awareness.
[01:60:19 – 01:60:20]
Oh, absolutely.
[01:60:20 – 01:61:33]
I mean, I always say this about awareness, like, especially self awareness. Like life is a treasure map. X is the treasure. Self awareness is knowing where you start on that map. If you don’t know where the starting point is, if you don’t know where you are on the map, how the hell are you going to get to that treasure? And you’re going to have an entire world telling you where to begin, who to be, how to act, what to say, what to wear, what to be. And, and I think that right there, that lack of awareness, I’m not going to say it’s the whole kit and caboodle when it comes to the mental health issue because there, there’s a lot of like just circumstance, there’s wiring, physiology, but for a large portion of our society, it’s a complete lack of awareness. And if you go against your true nature like that, right, there is a toxic mixture. After a while you’re the, the toxicity is going to be brewing up within you because you’re doing what society is telling you to do. You’re doing what all your influences are telling you to do. And you’re not listening to your true nature and your true foundation.
[01:61:34 – 01:61:36]
Oh, that’s exactly it.
[01:61:36 – 01:61:39]
And eventually to me, that’s what killed my brother.
[01:61:39 – 01:61:49]
Yeah, it, that awareness that you’re sharing with us is valid because I don’t have that frame of reference.
[01:61:49 – 01:61:51]
Yeah. Right back to that.
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Isn’t that true?
[01:61:54 – 01:61:55]
Yeah. Yeah.
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Right.
[01:61:55 – 01:62:16]
But like, to me it’s like, like he, he just didn’t have a great awareness of who he was. He was doing what men are supposed to do and that is to conquer all con sexual conquests at, you know, and it was just. It was a lie.
[01:62:17 – 01:62:48]
Yeah, he was. Yeah. We could get into more in depth of that, but I want to get. We’ve hopefully got a few extra minutes here, my friend. Yeah, I got a couple more questions I’d love to ask if you don’t mind. Let’s do it in 2012 along with your friend. You did that 7,000 miles for Canadians. That’s like 11,265 kilometers. You did it as a team with your buddy across the United States for the suicide awareness and the healing power of art. What was the most challenging part of that journey?
[01:62:53 – 01:62:55]
It depends on the day.
[01:62:56 – 01:63:01]
Hey, that’s an honest answer. Nothing wrong with that.
[01:63:01 – 01:64:49]
You know, the second, if we were going to quit, if there was any day that we would have quit, it would have been the second day. Just to like, the physicality. Phoenix isn’t filled with a lot of hills. When we prepped, we did 13 months, 12 and a half months of prep. That means building a community, having an infrastructure which is like a website, partnerships with local organizations, and then also cold calling hundreds of people to. To set up these events that we were going to have in different communities across the state, across the country. And when you do that, you have to adhere to their schedule, not to yours. So you have to keep up with the schedule, which means that you got to get there no matter what. And so we didn’t have a lot of time to do a lot of physical training in, in the first half. And there’s not a lot of hills in. In Phoenix. You’d have to like travel like about an hour outside to get to some hills, but there’s not a lot of hills if you’re working like close to 40 hours a week. And then you have the second job of where you’re trying to raise money in, in building an organization and a, you know, and, and a calling all these people day in and day out to make sure that you have a, you know, places to. To attend months down the road after the bike ride has already started. So when we started in San Francisco, which is nothing but hills, like, it beat the piss out of us.
[01:64:50 – 01:64:52]
Yeah, of course it was.
[01:64:52 – 01:65:38]
So the second day, first day we went from Sausalito which is north of the bridge, the northern tip of the bridge through San Francisco and then ended in Palo Alto. The second day was from Palo Alto to Santa Cruz. Now it would have been about 30 miles from Palo Alto to Santa Cruz if we took the highway. Unfortunately, there’s no shoulder and there were blind turns on a highway where vehicles are going 75 miles plus. So that option was out because, like, you’re on the other end of that, that blind turn and a Ferrari comes around from Palo Alto and just smashes into you, trips over.
[01:65:38 – 01:65:39]
Ouch.
[01:65:39 – 01:66:17]
So we had to add 20 more miles and go over the Santa Cruz mountains. Now, the first time I had ever ridden My bike 55 miles in one sitting was on the first day of tour. The second day we had 48 miles to go. 42 of them were straight up the damn mountain. And then the last, like six were down the mountain. So there was a lot on that second day where we were just pushing. We were off our bikes and we were pushing our bike.
[01:66:17 – 01:66:19]
Yeah, up a hill.
[01:66:21 – 01:68:08]
I think, like, after that physicality, you know, the conversations get heavy. You have like a three hour conversation with like a room full of 60 people and it’s like one heartbreaking story after another that takes a lot out of you to where, like, once we were strong enough on the bikes, the, the writing became the escape. And when I, I say that we rode as a team. Once we got back to Arizona, all the piss and vinegar was knocked out of us after going through California. And Zach had to have an emergency oral surgery for a busted tooth so he couldn’t ride. So what we did was I had been on a walk six years earlier where I was like film school on the road and theology on the road or seminary on the road because I was with a group of progressive Christians. This is like the first thing that I did to break the mold. And when I got into more of my professional career and the things that I wanted to do, I shot a documentary for a group of people that walked from Phoenix to Washington D.C. and I did a lot of walking backwards with those walkers with a camera on my shoulder. And so they had a support vehicle and they did walks and shifts. So knowing that Zach was injured and that we had to adhere to other people’s schedule, we would just decided to take my truck once we got to Arizona and we would rotate. We both didn’t have to ride 7,000 miles each. We had to do it.
[01:68:08 – 01:68:10]
That’s smart. That’s smart.
[01:68:10 – 01:68:46]
Which was helpful because in North Carolina, near the tail end of the, of the, the ride, of the journey. Zach was having back spasms because as I’m the turtle, that dude’s totally the hair. And every single time he got on his bike, he put on some death metal and he raced. It didn’t matter if he was riding 60 miles, 70 miles or 80 miles or 40 miles, he was going to race that entire time. Wow. And me, I get on my bike and I’m just like, I’m enjoying atmosphere, you know, and I take my time.
[01:68:47 – 01:68:48]
So that’s funny.
[01:68:48 – 01:68:59]
By the time we got to Chapel Hill, he was having back spasms and he couldn’t ride for like three or four states. And so I was doing all the riding five days a week.
[01:68:59 – 01:69:00]
Wow.
[01:69:00 – 01:69:12]
Up until he was finally like, he’s finally. He. We would. We would. We’d get done riding for the day and then we would go to a masseuse and he would be. Even though he was the one that didn’t ride, he’d be the one having.
[01:69:12 – 01:69:16]
The massages because of his back spasms.
[01:69:16 – 01:69:33]
Because of his back spasms. And it took like. It took like a month before he was able to get back on the. On the bike and go. So. But by that time, we had gone through, like North Carolina. What’s after that, Virginia, Maryland, and then into Pennsylvania.
[01:69:34 – 01:69:35]
Wow.
[01:69:35 – 01:69:36]
Yeah.
[01:69:36 – 01:69:39]
It was road warriors on those.
[01:69:39 – 01:70:15]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s. It’s definitely. I. I would say, like, the one thing that can be really, really hard when you go on a journey like that. Even if you’re not having these emotional conversations, it’s good to get away from your community, because your community, even though they’re supportive, they also kind of unconsciously are authors of your narrative. And so it’s good to get away from your community because then you see who you truly are outside of that community, which is another layer of, like, expanding your awareness and your self awareness. But that break is really hard.
[01:70:17 – 01:70:22]
From community. It can be. And your community can be even your. Just your family. Right?
[01:70:22 – 01:70:23]
Yeah.
[01:70:23 – 01:70:24]
That’s community itself.
[01:70:26 – 01:72:20]
And I was used to this because I had. I had been through this when I did the walk the first time. So I knew those first few weeks was going to be hard and that you were going to have patches of difficulty. And it’s definitely like the. The only thing that’s. That, that doesn’t change. The only. The only thing that’s similar is the constant change. You’re constantly changing. Every single day is a different group of people, a different community, different. Different landscape, different environment, different weather. Like, it’s Constantly different scenery, everything. That’s the only thing that was that, that stayed the same. That was, that was, that didn’t change. Was that it. It always ch. That it always changed every single day. And so you’re just. When you’re away from your community, you have those like moments of just. It gets, you know, there can be some despair just in that separation anxiety. And also there’s a lot of like, just arbitrary moments that are just. Everybody looks at the idea and they read the, the oh, 7, 000 miles across the country. That must have been just like an adventure. Well, they don’t. There’s a reason when they show vignettes in movies like Lord of the Rings because a lot of it is so benign that it’s, it’s. It’s so dull that it’s like it, it’s painful, you know, when you’re just like. Whether it’s like the, the. The agony of like riding through headwinds or just you’re in the middle of nowhere for days. There’s a lot of things that are exciting about an adventure and there’s a lot of things that aren’t so exciting. And you have to take the good with the bad, have to take the, the exciting with the boring. You know, you have to really covet those.
[01:72:21 – 01:73:28]
Well, you have an end result. You have an end result. To, to help guide you through that challenge of those boring or times. I wrote, I shared a little bit about that in my book about a. Some Americans know who he was, but he’s a famous Canadian by the name of Terry Fox. And he did, he did across Canada. He was a cancer survivor and he did it with a prosthetic leg. Right. And all the challenges he went through to raise money and raise awareness for cancer. And some of the things I’ve read about him over the years is, is that the most disheartening things are when he was on the long stretches taking the Trans Canada highway across Canada that there were stretches where it was like you said, the weather was bad and they’d still, he was still out and he refused to take that break. He had a follow vehicle support team and stuff. And he go longer than he should. Right. Because he was on a mission. Right. His mission was to raise awareness and there was a lot of it, it wasn’t sexy. And the people.
[01:73:28 – 01:73:29]
There’s nothing sexy about it.
[01:73:30 – 01:73:31]
No, nothing. Exactly.
[01:73:31 – 01:73:39]
So when you wrote there’s more romantic idealism connected to the, to, to the, the journey than there is.
[01:73:40 – 01:74:37]
Is there always. Right. That’s just the way it is. And he really, to me, is a true hero. He’s obvious he passed a long time ago. He didn’t make it. He didn’t finish the. He was trying to go from the Atlantic to the Pacific. He ended up. His cancer came back and, you know, unfortunately, he perished. But if you, if you actually looked up Terry Fox, what an amazing man. Many Americans know about him, but it all depends where you live and what your life has been like. But I wanted to wrap this up with talking some. A little bit about your book. The, you know, the 2012 A Bicycle Odyssey. I know myself, when I wrote my own book, it was very cathartic. It helped me realize things about myself. Both a pat on the back or a kick in the ass, you know? Right. It was realization moments about things that I had compartmentalized and locked down that came out when I was writing my book. What was it like writing that book for you?
[01:74:38 – 01:74:52]
Oh, it was, it was. It was like facing a dragon. I I Sorry. I I Delivery of cough drops.
[01:74:52 – 01:74:55]
That’s okay. That’s life, man.
[01:74:55 – 01:75:44]
I am so I, I grew up, I wanted to be a visual artist. I always had ideas. Originally, I wanted to write, and then I was teased about how horrible my spelling was, how horrible my sentence structure was by people that I don’t even hang out with anymore. You know, people that I talked about, like, earlier. It’s like some of those, like, toxic relationships, and I was just made fun of, and it, like, totally turned me off, made me feel like I was an idiot. Damn it. And so let me hit my.
[01:75:44 – 01:75:49]
Go ahead, go ahead. You gotta take care of yourself.
[01:75:51 – 01:75:52]
Sorry about that.
[01:75:52 – 01:76:11]
Oh, don’t apologize. Anybody listening or watching? If you’ve never been sick, I, I commend Thomas for being willing to still do this interview, so, this conversation when he’s coming off of a bad flu. So thank you, Thomas. Don’t apologize for having to take care of yourself.
[01:76:11 – 01:76:57]
All right? So I was. People made fun of me for writing for a long time. So I was just like, okay, I’ll be a visual artist. I got more into photography or wanted to be, like, a director. Somebody else can write it, I can give outlines and stuff like that. And so when I, when I originally was going to do this trip, this journey, I wanted to do a documentary. I was coming out of film school, and I wanted to do a documentary. And we wanted to raise money, enough money to, like, get. Purchase a new vehicle, like a used van and hire somebody to drive it. A lot of editing here.
[01:77:06 – 01:77:13]
So you were talking about the fact of, you know, just writing your book and.
[01:77:13 – 01:77:14]
Yeah.
[01:77:14 – 01:77:15]
Accepting where you were at.
[01:77:15 – 01:78:29]
I wanted to do a documentary and I just realized we didn’t. We didn’t get enough money to hire somebody who could drive the support vehicle. And so it was just another thing that I had to do on the journey, on the bike ride. I had to bike ride. I still had to do administrative work. I had to sometimes to be a support vehicle driver. And then we had the event, but I still took the camera and I interviewed a lot of people and I just knew that like a quarter of the way through the bike ride that I was. This was going to be a book that I was going to share the story. We were being told over and over again. You got to share your story. And so I just told myself I was going to write. And so I took an extensive diary. I. You. I took. I shot a lot of footage and I used both, I used both to help me write the book. And not only was it, you know, not only did it help me personally, it was a catharsis, but like, it brought my passion back of wanting to be a writer. And I’m very, very, very proud of this book.
[01:78:29 – 01:78:38]
Show your book, those watching. Beautiful cover. Check it out. I assume it’s available on Amazon and places like that.
[01:78:39 – 01:78:59]
Yeah, go to my website, Rise Phoenix.org and you can get to the link there from to Amazon as well as social media and my podcast stages and your monologue.
[01:79:01 – 01:79:52]
Sounds fair. I’ll make sure that I’m dying over here. Yeah, that’s okay, brother. We’re gonna wrap up this show here. I’ll make sure that goes in the show notes. People that are new to the show, whether watching or listening, go to give a heck dot com. Go to the top where the podcast is. We’ll make sure that all the social media and contact info for Thomas is put in the show notes. And you’ll be able to also read the unedited show notes if you want to read as opposed to listen or you have a specific thing that you would like to. There also be a timeline there too, for you can go back and listen to specific topics or things that Thomas and I discussed throughout the podcast. So one of the last things I want to ask you, Thomas, if you had to give our listeners one last closing message, what would you tell them in regards to giving a heck and never giving up?
[01:79:52 – 01:79:54]
Know thyself.
[01:79:54 – 01:80:07]
Love it simple. Know thyself. We should all have that in a big landscape picture stuck on our wall, stuck by the door. Going outside, right? Know thyself.
[01:80:07 – 01:80:21]
Just what a great thing. Just like the oracles of Delphi. My partner, she. She painted a know thyself sign right above our. When we. When we leave our house, that’s the last thing we see.
[01:80:22 – 01:80:49]
Know thyself. Be true to yourself. Right? Be true to yourself. Don’t always try to people. Pleasing is something I’ve been stuck in a lot of my life and I’ve had to work so hard to get out of it. Right? Know thyself. Be proud of who you are and what you can offer the world. Appreciate you being on Thomas, even with you not feeling well. I really appreciate the conversation.
[01:80:50 – 01:80:54]
Sorry about the coughing fit in the last 20 minutes.
[01:80:54 – 01:81:06]
That’s okay. If people are engaged, they won’t mind because that’s reality of life. We all can be sick and be under the weather. Most of us would crawl under a blanket with a hot toddy. Right.
[01:81:06 – 01:81:08]
I’m about to do that right now.
[01:81:08 – 01:81:14]
Good for you. Any last words before I close up the show, Thomas?
[01:81:14 – 01:81:19]
Dwight, this is awesome. I really appreciate this conversation. I had a good time.
[01:81:19 – 01:82:49]
Oh, me too, brother. We’ll look at. As you proceed forward in your life along this journey, we’ll get you on again if it makes sense and share some more things to help people get to those challenges. You know, like, you shared so much great information and it didn’t even involve suicide. It involved the development and the climb that we go through in our lives and the things that we, you know, like some of the steps you. You pointed out again, those listening and watching go back. There was so many nuggets of gold that Thomas shared with us that can help you give a heck about your life. Live that purposeful life that you all, we all deserve. But it takes effort. Nobody’s going to hand you a go. Even if somebody handed you a golden platter of money, it still doesn’t take away your six inches and the challenges that you possibly face. Right. You need to work on yourself. Money is a tool, but you still have to find the other tools that are not money, coaches, mentors, personal development, books, audio podcasts, whatever. Good mentors and friends are hard to find that’ll challenge you and say, listen, you need some, some help. You’re struggling here. You mentioned it to me and let’s talk about it. So also be very cognizant of the science of communication where people are struggling and, and maybe you can be that person to, you know, lift them up and help them through their lives. I’ll let you go, though. Thomas, thanks so much.
[01:82:49 – 01:82:50]
Thank you, Dwight.
[01:82:50 – 01:83:02]
Yeah, you’re welcome. Thanks so much for being on Give a Thomas. I appreciate your time and sharing some of your experiences so that others too can learn. It is never too late to give a heck.